What a Financial Crime Expert Knows That Most People Don’t

0:00:00.080,0:00:08.160
Fraud now costs more than the global drug trade. 
It does indeed. You hunt the bad guys. The UK is

0:00:08.160,0:00:14.880
a big hot spot. This is a big problem. Clearly, 
you've got half a million that is gone very,

0:00:14.880,0:00:21.440
very quickly. Okay. Is it coming back? So, that's 
the interesting question. I am Jessica Cath and

0:00:21.440,0:00:27.040
I head up the financial crime team at Thistle 
Initiatives and we help banks, fintexs, crypto

0:00:27.040,0:00:31.440
firms to prevent financial crime. Young people 
don't often realize that you're doing something

0:00:31.440,0:00:38.240
illegal. That's really scary. How should we 
visualize what's going on? Visualizing a scammer

0:00:38.240,0:00:42.160
is very difficult because they could be anyone. 
Phone calls you will not get anymore. What are

0:00:42.160,0:00:48.320
push payments? This is very difficult for banks to 
spot. What's the most convincing deep fake? At the

0:00:48.320,0:00:56.080
moment, the most convincing deep fakes. 40% of our 
crime is fraud. 40%. The frameworks the government

0:00:56.080,0:01:06.080
have set don't quite work. That's not good enough. 
We need more investment into policing. They've not

0:01:06.080,0:01:10.480
put the mechanisms in place to protect people. 
Why haven't they? They haven't put it in place

0:01:10.480,0:01:18.960
because they don't need to. Top three red flags 
for scamming. What would they be? The top three.

0:01:18.960,0:01:27.120
Jessica, welcome to the podcast. So basically, you 
hunt the bad guys. I try my best. You hunt all of

0:01:27.120,0:01:33.360
those guys that are phoning us, trying to steal 
money off our elderly parents, off our teenagers,

0:01:33.360,0:01:38.800
and off us. Is that that's really what you do. 
You're going after them. It is indeed. We work

0:01:38.800,0:01:43.920
with lots of the financial services firms to 
build the structures that really get to the

0:01:43.920,0:01:49.680
heart of trying to stop money laundering, fraud, 
all of the different types of financial crime that

0:01:49.680,0:01:57.440
we actually face on the ground. Okay, this is a 
big problem. Clearly, we're all all of us have

0:01:57.440,0:02:04.720
experienced at some point someone trying to steal 
money off us or people that we love and know. Um,

0:02:04.720,0:02:13.920
in terms of countries that are most affected, 
which would those be? The UK is a big hot spot.

0:02:13.920,0:02:20.160
Um, so if we're talking about fraud, we really are 
a kind of scam uh target for the world. I mean,

0:02:20.160,0:02:24.960
even one member of my own team got scammed 
the other day. So even when you're in the

0:02:24.960,0:02:33.600
anti-financial crime space, it can be really easy 
to fall foul to scams. Um, we have in the UK some

0:02:33.600,0:02:40.640
real challenges for multiple different reasons. 
Uh, we have really good fast payments through

0:02:40.640,0:02:47.360
some of our fintech players which are great and we 
love tapping for instant payments but it does mean

0:02:47.360,0:02:53.760
that we are quite expo exposed to fraud. Um, and 
of course a lot of that money then goes overseas

0:02:53.760,0:02:59.040
but in terms of the UK we then house a lot of the 
victims when it comes to fraud. Okay. So this is

0:02:59.040,0:03:03.920
horrible. I don't I don't like this cuz I live in 
the UK. Okay. So, the UK is a hot spot. What about

0:03:03.920,0:03:09.920
America? America is not so bad because they've 
got different types of payment flows. Uh so,

0:03:09.920,0:03:15.600
coming to back to this point around the UK really 
being a hub for faster payments. Of course,

0:03:15.600,0:03:21.840
Europe has uh faster payment flows as well, but 
we really do have some exciting developments in

0:03:21.840,0:03:29.120
terms of payments players which enable payments 
to move very very fast. We also have um a really

0:03:29.120,0:03:34.880
good kind of crypto network as well which 
again is a bit of a hub when it comes to

0:03:34.880,0:03:41.760
moving fraudulent funds. Um crypto of course 
in the US is becoming more prevalent because

0:03:41.760,0:03:47.600
of Trump's love of crypto. Uh but until this point 
the regulatory frameworks have been tricky in the

0:03:47.600,0:03:54.960
US. So the UK really is a bit of a hot spot when 
it comes to fraud. Okay. That's very disappointing

0:03:54.960,0:04:02.400
to hear. I'm I'm disappointed. Uh but in terms 
of the cost, so I don't know if this is correct,

0:04:02.400,0:04:10.400
so correct me if I'm wrong, that fraud now costs 
more than the global drug drug trade. Literally

0:04:10.400,0:04:15.920
more than the global drug trade. It does indeed. 
It does. And when we think I can't I can't believe

0:04:15.920,0:04:21.920
that it's impo almost impossible to think about 
it. Um because when we think about crime, we

0:04:21.920,0:04:27.120
think about drugs and that's when we think about 
money laundering. think about organized crime,

0:04:27.120,0:04:32.000
but actually fraud is something that impacts 
people on the ground in the dayto-day. Another

0:04:32.000,0:04:37.360
statistic that's really interesting is that 
over 40% of all the crime in the UK, no matter

0:04:37.360,0:04:44.160
what crime, is fraud. It's actual fraud. Do we 
think that the police are spending 40% of their

0:04:44.160,0:04:49.200
money trying to prevent fraud? No. They're still 
focused on other things, you know, knife crime,

0:04:49.200,0:04:56.000
etc., which of course is horrible, but fraud is 
really really impacting a lot of people on the

0:04:56.000,0:05:02.320
ground. Like you said, most people know someone 
that has been impacted by fraud. 100%. So, what's

0:05:02.320,0:05:08.320
the most audacious scam you've seen thus far? 
So, we've seen a couple of interesting ones. Um,

0:05:08.320,0:05:14.320
one that was a recent scam that actually happened 
to a client of ours was an absolute classic.

0:05:14.320,0:05:22.960
And uh this was a corporate entity receiving a 
fishing email that says, "I am your law firm." And

0:05:22.960,0:05:28.560
they were actually buying new office premises. Can 
you send me the deposit for your new premises? And

0:05:28.560,0:05:34.400
I think it was around half a million or something 
like that. And the uh executive assistant thought,

0:05:34.400,0:05:39.040
"Absolutely. This looks like an email coming 
from my boss. I'm going to make that payment

0:05:39.040,0:05:43.520
as quick as possible so that we don't lose 
out on the purchase." And there we go.

0:05:43.520,0:05:49.920
you've got half a million that is gone very very 
quickly. Okay. Is it coming back? So that's the

0:05:49.920,0:05:57.520
interesting question. Once the money has gone, it 
can be very very difficult to get that money back.

0:05:57.520,0:06:03.120
Um we have been helping them because we do have 
obviously lots of connections and ways in which

0:06:03.120,0:06:09.680
we can try and get money back and work with banks 
and different teams in order to try and expedite

0:06:09.680,0:06:14.720
the process of getting that money back. But if 
it has already gone overseas or it's gone into

0:06:14.720,0:06:21.120
crypto accounts, it's highly unlikely that you're 
going to get that money back. Um, and especially

0:06:21.120,0:06:28.320
that amount is very very difficult to get back. 
Um, when we're talking about normal customer,

0:06:28.320,0:06:34.480
so individual scams that are lower amounts than 
say the half a million, you are likely to get

0:06:34.480,0:06:39.600
that back depending on the scam based on the 
reimbursement models. But for this customer,

0:06:39.600,0:06:44.560
it's a lot of money that is pretty much gone. 
Although we have managed to get some some of

0:06:44.560,0:06:50.160
it back. I think about half. But I mean that can 
floor a business. It can definitely destroy your

0:06:50.160,0:06:56.720
your you know a person an individual it can 
that's all your life savings you know gone.

0:06:56.720,0:07:03.600
I mean prevention is for sure better than cure. 
And that's a classic scam for people. So people in

0:07:03.600,0:07:09.360
uh vulnerable life situations. So if you are 
making a house purchase, that is all your savings

0:07:09.360,0:07:13.200
usually that you're putting into that transaction. 
So if you are making a house purchase,

0:07:13.200,0:07:19.600
you're in a vulnerable position for attack from 
these very intelligent fraudsters. Absolutely.

0:07:19.600,0:07:23.920
They're seeking you in a vulnerable financial 
state. And that's how we have to see it. Now,

0:07:23.920,0:07:29.040
um can you just explain what a fishing 
fishing email, that's how you say it,

0:07:29.040,0:07:33.040
is is for anyone that doesn't actually 
understand. Um, we have a lot of elderly

0:07:33.040,0:07:37.760
people watching too that just wouldn't know 
what that means. How do you identify one? Yes,

0:07:37.760,0:07:45.920
it's fishing with a ph instead of an F. Um, so a 
fishing email is basically a social engineering

0:07:45.920,0:07:53.040
craft where somebody has crafted that email to 
look like it's coming from a legitimate source.

0:07:53.040,0:08:00.480
Um, so in this case it was crafted to look like 
it was coming from the law firm to the CEO and

0:08:00.480,0:08:07.280
then to the CEO to the executive assistant. So it 
looked like a full trail of emails that it looked

0:08:07.280,0:08:14.320
legitimate. It had the law firm's signature at the 
bottom of the email. It had the CEO's signature.

0:08:14.320,0:08:20.960
And all of these different fishing emails or 
messages can be crafted quite closely and can be

0:08:20.960,0:08:25.920
very difficult to spot particularly when they're 
using things like AI to help craft and shape the

0:08:25.920,0:08:31.360
messages in these emails. Wow. They're using AI. 
Okay. So, they're getting away with it. Clearly,

0:08:31.360,0:08:34.960
at least even that you got half the money back. 
The other half they've got away with. Why are

0:08:34.960,0:08:40.480
they getting away with it? There are multiple 
reasons why they're getting away with it. Um,

0:08:40.480,0:08:47.040
one, there isn't enough resources in policing. 
So trying to actually get the money back through

0:08:47.040,0:08:53.200
policing is very very difficult. Two, it's very 
difficult for for banks uh financial institutions

0:08:53.200,0:08:59.280
to try and track that money because in the 
world of financial crime prevention that I'm in

0:08:59.280,0:09:05.840
uh transaction monitoring has become a huge 
complex thing. So, if you are scammed, the bank

0:09:05.840,0:09:11.280
or whoever you bank with will be monitoring all 
of your payment flows and they're doing incredible

0:09:11.280,0:09:16.800
things to look at changes in behaviors using 
AI, machine learning models to try and assess

0:09:16.800,0:09:22.560
whether or not this is a bit of a different 
payment. But that's all very very hard to spot

0:09:22.560,0:09:28.160
um depending on the scam. So, actually identifying 
that it's a scam can be very very hard. So,

0:09:28.160,0:09:32.480
there are just multiple different reasons that 
this is a very difficult thing to prevent.

0:09:32.480,0:09:39.200
Gosh, it's frightening. So, who's profiting? Who 
Who are these people? There are multiple different

0:09:39.200,0:09:46.000
types of scammer. So, you might think that it's 
someone like you or I sat on the end of a phone

0:09:46.000,0:09:52.560
doing some scams as a bit of a side hustle. Uh, 
and there are some low-level scammers. Uh, it's

0:09:52.560,0:09:58.240
becoming easier through AI to do some low-level 
scams, but a lot of it is actually connected

0:09:58.240,0:10:06.400
to large global organized crime. And that makes 
it really difficult to try and stop. So when we

0:10:06.400,0:10:12.000
start to peel back the layers of some of these 
scams, if you take a romance scam for example,

0:10:12.000,0:10:18.560
um which there was a report that came out only 
yesterday and romance scams are on the increase

0:10:18.560,0:10:25.920
uh at a large scale in the UK and a lot of these 
are produced by scam factories in Southeast Asia.

0:10:25.920,0:10:32.320
on the border of Myanmar often. And these are 
huge scam factories with often people trafficked

0:10:32.320,0:10:38.720
people who have been trafficked into these scam 
factories often with violence and they have

0:10:38.720,0:10:44.960
really clear romance scam scripts and criteria 
that they must follow and their job is to have

0:10:44.960,0:10:52.960
20 30 mobile phones and conduct romance scams. So 
when we try and stop that that's very hard because

0:10:52.960,0:10:57.920
it's across global borders. But just on the the 
romance scams, I mean, I've seen some things in

0:10:57.920,0:11:04.640
the papers where you see this photo of Brad Pitt, 
you know, ill in hospital and then these women,

0:11:04.640,0:11:09.760
you know, they fall for these pictures, this, but 
actually it looks quite fake, you think. But why

0:11:09.760,0:11:14.320
did you fall for it? Is that what we're talking 
about? Or is it more elaborate than that? Is

0:11:14.320,0:11:20.640
that just a maybe a low-level one that wasn't that 
good? I think that's the wrong way to look at it.

0:11:21.280,0:11:28.960
um we always victimize the victim even more by 
saying why did you fall for it? And that's what we

0:11:28.960,0:11:35.280
shouldn't be doing because actually it's so easy 
to fall for these because often a romance scam the

0:11:35.280,0:11:40.160
scammers put the time in and they've actually 
built up a relationship with that person over

0:11:40.160,0:11:46.560
sometimes I've seen six months where they really 
have built up long-term relationships and if it's

0:11:46.560,0:11:52.880
part of organized crime they can do that because 
they know if you've got a longerterm relationship

0:11:52.880,0:11:58.720
when they ask for a big amount of money you're 
very likely to to send that across. So, even if

0:11:58.720,0:12:03.920
you haven't met them in person, but you've built 
a long-term relationship with them over time,

0:12:03.920,0:12:09.520
you feel like you know that person. Yeah. It's 
another level. It's a It's a complete other level.

0:12:09.520,0:12:15.040
And we shouldn't be victimizing the victims even 
more. So, the amount of time that goes into that

0:12:15.040,0:12:21.520
and they building that credibility, that's not 
necessarily what would be reported. Um but yes,

0:12:21.520,0:12:26.640
you're emotionally involved then and you think but 
that could possibly you couldn't possibly be doing

0:12:26.640,0:12:30.720
anything bad here because we've been speaking 
for so long. You can understand yes when you

0:12:30.720,0:12:35.440
look at it like that but still sometimes you look 
at that photo and you think well that wasn't done

0:12:35.440,0:12:39.120
as professionally if you are going to be a scammer 
sometimes you look at the photos to be fair and

0:12:39.120,0:12:44.800
you think that is so obviously not done very 
well. But I suppose what I'm trying to get from

0:12:44.800,0:12:49.680
you is do you have levels? So maybe the ones that 
don't do things well, but then something that's

0:12:49.680,0:12:54.400
like you're saying that fishing email where it's 
super professional and slick and you could hardly

0:12:54.400,0:13:00.240
tell the difference. Yeah, there are complete 
different levels. Um, so the simple ones for me,

0:13:00.240,0:13:06.560
you quite often get the fishing messages now that 
are just so obviously the scams from 5 years ago.

0:13:06.560,0:13:12.560
Um, and there's been a lot of awareness campaigns 
to show that people should just be aware of text

0:13:12.560,0:13:21.600
messages that look like a scam. But some scams are 
very very hard to spot. So for example, a scammer

0:13:21.600,0:13:28.880
might have built a completely identical web page 
to your bank that looks the same, feels the same,

0:13:28.880,0:13:34.320
and the only thing that might be different is one 
character in the URL. So if you're not looking

0:13:34.320,0:13:40.960
very closely at the URLs or the website domains, 
it's very hard to spot unless you know what you're

0:13:40.960,0:13:46.160
looking for. Um, and in those cases, obviously, 
banks are actually at the moment out crawling to

0:13:46.160,0:13:52.000
see who's creating fake websites of their firms 
and trying to make sure that customers are aware.

0:13:52.000,0:13:56.000
But if you're an individual that doesn't know 
anything about financial crime prevention, you

0:13:56.000,0:13:59.760
might think you're just logging into your bank. 
That's why elderly and teenagers, although the

0:13:59.760,0:14:04.640
teenagers, they are growing up to be a bit more 
savvy because they know how much of this is going

0:14:04.640,0:14:10.240
on. They won't click on things they don't know. 
And um even my teenager will she'll check you

0:14:10.240,0:14:16.960
know she'll take the URL and she'll plug it into 
Chad GBT and go valid or not question mark check.

0:14:16.960,0:14:24.560
Great that's an excellent excellent check. Um but 
yes they are more savvy but they are as well more

0:14:24.560,0:14:31.280
at risk of things like money muing. What's that? 
Um so young people are often at risk of becoming

0:14:31.280,0:14:39.200
a money mule. A money mule is or like a like a 
donkey or a mule that's carrying something. Um,

0:14:39.200,0:14:46.080
and it's basically carrying money from one place 
to another. So, this is where you might have a

0:14:46.080,0:14:51.520
uh scammer or another type of financial crime. 
That's where the money's coming in from and they

0:14:51.520,0:14:57.920
are asking to use your account to move that to 
somewhere else. So, you might just be part of

0:14:57.920,0:15:03.360
the transition and carrying that money and 
moving it from one place to another. Um,

0:15:03.360,0:15:08.560
and often they target young people because young 
people are looking for quick ways to make a little

0:15:08.560,0:15:15.040
bit of extra cra. Um, and it's a really easy 
thing to do. You say, "Absolutely, these are my

0:15:15.040,0:15:20.560
account details. Send me the money." You often 
keep a small portion of the fee and then you

0:15:20.560,0:15:25.040
just send the money elsewhere. And young people 
don't often realize that you're doing something

0:15:25.040,0:15:30.880
illegal which can ruin your credit rating. If the 
bank spots it, your every your accounts will be

0:15:30.880,0:15:37.600
shut down. Um I know some young people that have 
been unable to get mortgages in future because of

0:15:37.600,0:15:42.640
activities that they've done through money muing 
when they're younger. They might not think that

0:15:42.640,0:15:50.720
they're doing something criminal, but being part 
of that money laundering flow, you are. Gosh, this

0:15:50.720,0:15:55.600
is literally I I'm so glad we're talking right 
now because I hear, you know, you hear about drug

0:15:55.600,0:16:00.080
mules and you think, okay, well, you've that's 
a terrible thing. You meet the wrong people,

0:16:00.080,0:16:04.800
you're transporting these drugs across and that's 
it. Your life's ruined, basically. Um, but this is

0:16:04.800,0:16:10.240
a money mule thing, more subtle, very dangerous 
for these teenagers and they need to know about

0:16:10.240,0:16:15.520
it. They we need to get this out there. This has 
got to be a short come with a warning and say all

0:16:15.520,0:16:21.280
teenagers listen to this. That's really scary. So, 
how will they know that they've been money muled?

0:16:21.280,0:16:26.880
What's what are the signs for this for the for the 
teens? So, anyone that's asking you to, you know,

0:16:26.880,0:16:32.160
can I send you some money if you move it somewhere 
else? Um, the challenge is often it comes through

0:16:32.160,0:16:36.960
people that you semi- know. So, it might be 
through a school friend or it might be from

0:16:36.960,0:16:45.200
a university friend or a friend of a friend and 
you feel like there's an element of trust there,

0:16:45.200,0:16:51.040
but that's why they're so at risk. Ultimately, if 
anyone's asking you, can I just move some money

0:16:51.040,0:16:58.080
through your account? That is a red flag. Okay, 
that's that's pretty clear, right? So, you said

0:16:58.080,0:17:03.520
earlier about when we think about the scammers and 
frauds, this is not necessarily this one lonesome

0:17:03.520,0:17:07.760
person, you know, sitting on the other end of the 
phone trying to do this little small scam. So,

0:17:07.760,0:17:14.080
how should we think about them? How should we 
visualize what's going on? So, visualizing a

0:17:14.080,0:17:19.360
scammer is very difficult because of because 
they could be anyone. That's the challenge. Um,

0:17:19.360,0:17:26.080
and like I said with the money mule piece, it 
could be someone within your network and that's

0:17:26.080,0:17:31.440
where really good quality scams take place where 
there is an element of trust. Um, or it could be a

0:17:31.440,0:17:37.760
huge global organized crime gang potentially with 
links to national states. You know, there's a lot

0:17:37.760,0:17:47.680
of big big uh criminal groups behind this. Um or 
it could be someone very small nearby. Okay. So it

0:17:47.680,0:17:54.080
could be still the individual and a trusted one, 
but it could be a massive company. Mhm. Corporate

0:17:54.080,0:17:59.280
organization, just a crime organization with 
levels and I'm I'm assuming management and people

0:17:59.280,0:18:06.000
that have to report to somebody and Exactly. 
Exactly. I mean, we have actually seen South Korea

0:18:06.000,0:18:11.680
um advising their students not to take jobs in 
Southeast Asia because they've fallen into these

0:18:11.680,0:18:17.040
um scam factories and they've they've they're 
lost. They can't get them back. So, this is

0:18:17.040,0:18:23.680
complete human trafficking. My goodness. Okay. 
So, could you could you walk me through a typical

0:18:23.680,0:18:29.840
modern scam and how that works just you know from 
the lowest level up so that we can understand bit

0:18:29.840,0:18:36.480
better insight into this world. Yeah. So perhaps 
if I go back and just take the romance scam

0:18:36.480,0:18:45.520
because um this is one that perhaps people can 
relate to that starts with some form of contact

0:18:45.520,0:18:53.680
point with an individual and the relationship is 
built up over time usually on the phone or can be

0:18:53.680,0:19:00.720
through chat messages or perhaps it started on a 
a dating site and then they've taken it off onto

0:19:00.720,0:19:08.160
WhatsApp or something like that and it really does 
take a long time. So they build up a relationship

0:19:08.160,0:19:17.600
uh fake personas, fake people, fake backgrounds, 
um fake scripts. Uh so for example, one of the

0:19:17.600,0:19:23.760
scripts might be after two weeks you must tell 
them that you love them, after four weeks you

0:19:23.760,0:19:31.920
must move on to the next stage or whatever that 
might be. So, it's really really scripted to get

0:19:31.920,0:19:38.320
the to make the most of emotional manipulation. 
Awful. Absolutely disgusting. Really. And then

0:19:38.320,0:19:44.480
once they're ready to do the scam, it's then 
about putting pressure. So, it's some form of

0:19:44.480,0:19:49.840
fast request in a vulnerable situation that 
relies on pressure. So, if you have anything

0:19:49.840,0:19:57.520
that is a pressure to move money at speed, that is 
a red flag. So often it will be um I don't know,

0:19:57.520,0:20:03.840
my mother is in hospital. I need money to pay 
for her health care. Please can you help me out?

0:20:03.840,0:20:10.800
I need £10,000. Or they might need just £1,000 to 
start and then it increases upwards quite quickly.

0:20:10.800,0:20:16.640
And all of the scams are around some form of 
pressure to move money quickly. It makes me think

0:20:16.640,0:20:20.320
of my my parents, you know, when they sometimes 
come to me and my dad will say, "Oh, I've got an

0:20:20.320,0:20:24.800
email and there's a potential thing to invest in 
and this and that." And whenever I hear anyone

0:20:24.800,0:20:31.600
just anyone asking for money ever, no, no, no, no. 
And that's the way to go. But it's a sad situation

0:20:31.600,0:20:37.760
where you you have to go out not trusting anyone. 
Not trusting. That's right. And questioning before

0:20:37.760,0:20:42.640
you make any payment. Yeah. And same with phone 
calls. They've had phone calls saying, you know,

0:20:42.640,0:20:47.520
you need to do this and pressure about money. 
And you know, you just think, well, anyone,

0:20:47.520,0:20:52.720
no one would phone you like that about money. So 
you can't don't take the call. Put that down. Yes.

0:20:52.720,0:20:59.120
don't take phone calls. Um, so phone calls you 
will not get anymore. Um, phone calls will not

0:20:59.120,0:21:06.320
take place. Uh, but if someone does phone you, 
it's absolutely 100% a scam. So, phone calls, no.

0:21:06.320,0:21:14.960
Um, and if you are receiving a message or an email 
and you're not sure about it, phone your bank on

0:21:14.960,0:21:20.000
the number that you know is the bank and ask them 
and say, "I've just received this message. Can

0:21:20.000,0:21:25.120
you confirm?" they will confirm and then you can 
you can do it that way. You know, there's even

0:21:25.120,0:21:33.840
weird things going on about podcasts that you'll 
get and I got one from supposedly and I I could

0:21:33.840,0:21:40.560
tell it was a scam, but from Kirsten Cavaleri who 
was on the hills in in America saying, "Oh yeah,

0:21:40.560,0:21:46.080
you know, come on my podcast and we'll pay you 
to come on the podcast and this this and that."

0:21:46.080,0:21:51.280
And it just it just didn't feel right. And it 
wasn't. No. So, I contacted them and I said,

0:21:51.280,0:21:54.960
"Just so you're aware, you know, you you've got 
these people and they're like, "Oh, yeah, yeah,

0:21:54.960,0:21:58.560
we're aware, but thank you. Thank you for bringing 
this to our attention." If it doesn't feel right,

0:21:58.560,0:22:02.800
why would that why is that a thing? What are they 
trying to do? Well, it will usually be the next

0:22:02.800,0:22:08.320
stage. So, that might be the first trigger point 
to start building whatever relationship or start

0:22:08.320,0:22:16.160
the process of the scam. Um, and then they'll 
lead onto something else. Uh actually one other

0:22:16.160,0:22:22.080
scam type that's really important particularly for 
young people to be aware of are any sorts of scams

0:22:22.080,0:22:28.320
through phone theft. So I recently went to an 
event where someone talked us through the process.

0:22:28.320,0:22:36.480
He'd actually had his phone stolen and within 
15 minutes he'd lost 40,000. Okay. Um and that's

0:22:36.480,0:22:41.040
purely because he had his phone stolen whilst he 
was walking along the street and it was open and

0:22:41.040,0:22:49.360
unlocked. Yeah. And it was a that was a small on 
street gang purely for phone thefts. If it's open,

0:22:49.360,0:22:55.600
they have access to usually we have all of our 
banking apps on our phone. Um and he instantly

0:22:55.600,0:23:01.840
swept through all the accounts and drains them. 
Drains them. Yep. And you see that a lot in the

0:23:01.840,0:23:06.880
streets of London today. And I was in London for 
the weekend and my daughter got her phone out and

0:23:06.880,0:23:11.760
was I said, "Put that away right now. were walking 
around cuz and my husband saw someone's phone

0:23:11.760,0:23:15.600
being snatched right in front of him and the guy 
tried to run and catch them, but it didn't work.

0:23:15.600,0:23:23.280
It's just happening all the time. All the time. A 
couple of things that on the phone theft that you

0:23:23.280,0:23:30.320
could do proactively. One, just keep it locked and 
in your bag. two, when you're tapping on the tube,

0:23:30.320,0:23:34.800
actually some people are going back to to tapping 
just with their card because if you have your card

0:23:34.800,0:23:40.800
stolen, it's much easier to cancel your card than 
it is to cancel your phone, which has everything.

0:23:40.800,0:23:46.800
Um, true. So, should we be using the phone out 
when we're tapping on the tube? There are also

0:23:46.800,0:23:54.080
ways to hide the apps in your phone. So, for 
example, if you have your HSBC banking app,

0:23:54.080,0:24:00.080
for example, you can change the icon and you 
can change the name HSBC to something completely

0:24:00.080,0:24:05.200
random that you know is your banking app, but 
someone who might have stolen your phone wouldn't

0:24:05.200,0:24:10.800
be able to see that icon. So, there are some ways 
and techniques that people are trying to deploy

0:24:10.800,0:24:16.240
to stop this, but ultimately it's it's a pretty 
sad situation to be in where we're worried about,

0:24:16.240,0:24:23.840
you know, 40,000 instantly leaving our our 
accounts if you have your phone stolen. Gosh.

0:24:23.840,0:24:31.280
Okay. A term I've heard, um, push payments. What 
are push payments? So, authorized push payments

0:24:31.280,0:24:38.880
or a fraud is a particular type of fraud. Uh this 
is very difficult for banks to spot because this

0:24:38.880,0:24:48.400
is where you or I actually authorize that payment 
ourselves. So for example in COVID we're all sat

0:24:48.400,0:24:55.520
at home thinking I really want a new puppy. 
A fraud puppy scams were really popular. So,

0:24:55.520,0:25:00.640
this would be where you see an advert for a 
new puppy and you think, "This is brilliant."

0:25:00.640,0:25:07.360
And you authorize a payment for the puppy or the 
deposit and you never get that money back and you

0:25:07.360,0:25:12.160
never get the puppy. And it's really uh common in 
terms of purchase scams, that kind of thing. So,

0:25:12.160,0:25:18.080
if you see something online, you authorize a 
payment and then actually the the the thing

0:25:18.080,0:25:24.320
never turns up. It's really hard for banks to spot 
because you are authorizing that payment yourself.

0:25:25.120,0:25:30.560
And banks must allow you to make payments. 
You must be able to make your own payments.

0:25:30.560,0:25:36.160
You are the master of your own destiny when 
it comes to moving your own money around.

0:25:36.160,0:25:41.520
But what if it's a scam? So, so where where 
were you buying it from? It's not going to be

0:25:41.520,0:25:47.760
Amazon. What is this like Gum Tree? I mean, 
what? Actually, on different marketplaces,

0:25:47.760,0:25:53.360
there are quite a few fake storefronts. Um, I 
actually came across one the other day. I think

0:25:53.360,0:26:01.360
it was on Etsy that to me looked look very clearly 
an AI shopfront. Um, but I know that marketplaces

0:26:01.360,0:26:10.560
are actually doing an incredible amount to scan 
their websites constantly for fake shopfronts that

0:26:10.560,0:26:18.000
come up on their platforms. Um, but it's a it's a 
very very difficult piece. So we really so we now

0:26:18.000,0:26:24.080
need to be careful going onto these marketplaces. 
So Etsy surely not Amazon. be a bit more Amazon.

0:26:24.080,0:26:30.240
I need to be careful what what I say but of course 
Amazon as well has its problems right but actually

0:26:30.240,0:26:36.320
it's more around Chinese companies not paying 
any tax okay so it's more of a tax evasion

0:26:36.320,0:26:41.680
problem tax evasion but they would be more Amazon 
probably be more savvy in spotting the technical

0:26:41.680,0:26:46.880
well Etsy is very very very good as well and they 
take them down very very quickly okay um Facebook

0:26:46.880,0:26:52.240
marketplace has had to massively step up in terms 
of monitoring I saw some bad stuff on there yeah

0:26:52.240,0:26:58.880
they are still not Perfect. So, even if you're 
buying off a marketplace, you just need to be

0:26:58.880,0:27:04.720
conscious and do your own due diligence checks on 
the vendors. So, look, have they got any reviews?

0:27:04.720,0:27:09.200
Do the reviews look fake? How many other products 
are they selling? How long have they been on the

0:27:09.200,0:27:13.840
platform for? So, all of those kind of things, you 
will need to do your own checks as well. There's

0:27:13.840,0:27:19.840
just value to going into a shop and just buying it 
from a shop and from a person you know and trust

0:27:19.840,0:27:25.680
and buying the quality and all of that. I just 
it I mean absolutely going back to that. Yeah,

0:27:25.680,0:27:34.160
totally becoming more old. You know that it all 
goes back. It all it will it will it will. Okay.

0:27:34.160,0:27:44.320
Okay. So, we spoke about online fraud and the link 
to organized crime and human trafficking. It's not

0:27:44.320,0:27:51.200
always human trafficking, is it? But it can be. 
It can be. It can be. And once the money is gone,

0:27:51.200,0:27:58.960
it's normally very difficult to recover it. So 
we've spoken about that. And emotional triggers,

0:27:58.960,0:28:05.280
there is an element of using emotion to con 
you. So that is a real recognizable thing.

0:28:05.280,0:28:11.840
If someone's that's also a red flag if someone's 
pressure putting pressure on you um too good to

0:28:11.840,0:28:18.480
be true anything like that and you're finding 
your emotional strings being pulled that's a

0:28:18.480,0:28:28.400
red flag Mhm. within itself. Um can we talk a bit 
about AI voices, AI videos? um all that we've seen

0:28:28.400,0:28:34.720
that happening now how much more advanced AI is 
like can we trust a a phone call now from someone

0:28:34.720,0:28:40.800
who we think is our loved one someone we know and 
trust and can we trust a video with this person's

0:28:40.800,0:28:51.680
image or not so AI voice is interesting because to 
create a um set of words or a small conversation

0:28:51.680,0:28:58.080
AI only needs a tiny tiny segment of your voice 
so if you have a podcast for example and you're

0:28:58.080,0:29:05.520
a podcast host there's there is plenty of your 
voice out there don't give them ideas to train AI

0:29:05.520,0:29:12.960
models and also if they try to come after me I've 
got you exactly there we go we'll get them back

0:29:12.960,0:29:21.040
um so yeah if you've got videos online or you do 
any public speaking there'll be plenty of uh clips

0:29:21.040,0:29:27.920
for AI voice to be trained so you do just need to 
be conscious of AI voice Um, in terms of videos,

0:29:27.920,0:29:34.960
again, they're very easy to create now. Uh, 
still a bit harder than simple images, but

0:29:34.960,0:29:38.960
um, they're very easy to create. And images, 
they're very easy to create. So, if we're

0:29:38.960,0:29:46.720
thinking about things like um, account takeover 
fraud where someone takes over your account,

0:29:46.720,0:29:52.880
uh, perhaps they use one of your images to open up 
your account. Face recognition. Face recognition.

0:29:52.880,0:29:58.080
Switch your face recognition off immediately. 
everyone if you're listening and don't trust any

0:29:58.080,0:30:04.640
uh videos and uh voices unless you check it with 
a person. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's very very

0:30:04.640,0:30:13.600
difficult. Um but we're still we still haven't 
got to where I think we're going to go in terms of

0:30:13.600,0:30:21.200
criminal use of AI yet. There's still a lot more 
that's going to happen. So in the last five years,

0:30:21.200,0:30:27.360
we've really seen criminals start to explore 
these different methods. In the last two years,

0:30:27.360,0:30:34.000
we're really starting to see it ramp up, but this 
is now a ramp up phase in terms of different types

0:30:34.000,0:30:40.880
of uh criminal uses of AI. On the flip side, there 
is some really exciting things happening in terms

0:30:40.880,0:30:51.280
of using AI to stop AI generated scams. Um because 
often a human being trying to spot an AI generated

0:30:51.280,0:30:56.400
image or video can be very difficult. Actually I 
was in a room of financial crime professionals or

0:30:56.400,0:31:02.080
anti-inancial crime professionals and we were 
looking at different images and videos side by

0:31:02.080,0:31:08.880
side and we've been trained how to spot AI versus 
human images and even we were struggling to spot

0:31:08.880,0:31:16.240
quite a few of them. Um, and that's where only 
AI is good at spotting AI generated images and

0:31:16.240,0:31:21.360
videos. So, I suppose it's not all a doom 
and gloom story because there is quite a

0:31:21.360,0:31:27.520
lot of financial crime prevention that's using 
these technologies to try and prevent scams.

0:31:27.520,0:31:31.920
Absolutely. But we're doing a bit of a kind 
of catch up constantly with new methods. Well,

0:31:31.920,0:31:35.920
they want to use the AI in an evil way and then 
you've got to counteract that. So you've got to

0:31:35.920,0:31:41.200
develop to you know to just be the antidote like 
the opposite but it's a tool tool that can be

0:31:41.200,0:31:48.480
used nicely or not nicely I guess. What's the most 
convincing deep fake you've ever seen? So at the

0:31:48.480,0:31:55.680
moment the most con convincing deep fakes have 
still been images. So um using people's images

0:31:55.680,0:32:02.160
or fake images to create open new accounts. 
Um, in terms of videos, they're getting there,

0:32:02.160,0:32:09.120
but most of the deep fakes are still just people's 
images being used in different ways to circumvent

0:32:09.120,0:32:16.560
controls and move elicit money around. So, um, 
in terms of governments learning about this,

0:32:16.560,0:32:20.320
because you know, governments in a way are 
administrators as well. They put things in place,

0:32:20.320,0:32:25.760
but they need the knowledge, the knowhow to know 
what to put in place. Are they talking to people

0:32:25.760,0:32:31.600
like you, to your company? Mhm. They are. They 
are indeed. So actually before the last election

0:32:31.600,0:32:39.360
I went to and I was part of um some Labour Party 
policy groups. So I know that pre this election

0:32:39.360,0:32:44.000
the Labour party was out looking and speaking to 
industry about this and I'm sure other parties are

0:32:44.000,0:32:50.480
doing the same. Uh there are different industry 
associations that lobby the government a lot in

0:32:50.480,0:32:57.280
terms of the direction of travel for scams. 
the importance of 40% of our crime is fraud.

0:32:57.280,0:33:04.880
40% that's out there. Exactly. So, we need to 
do something about this. Um, but the challenges

0:33:04.880,0:33:12.000
that the frameworks the government have set don't 
quite work and that's where the lobbying is coming

0:33:12.000,0:33:18.800
into play. Yeah. I mean, that's not good enough. 
It's just not good enough, is it? It's not% No,

0:33:18.800,0:33:27.360
we we need more investment into policing, but we 
also need more in terms of regulatory frameworks

0:33:27.360,0:33:37.200
to allow for data sharing across banks, payments 
firms, because if you are scammed at one firm,

0:33:37.200,0:33:42.640
the money is going to move to another firm. And if 
you're looking to get that money back, the firms

0:33:42.640,0:33:46.800
all need to be speaking to each other and very 
very quickly because the money often moves all

0:33:46.800,0:33:55.840
within 10 15 minutes. So we have some regulatory 
frameworks that facilitate the data sharing,

0:33:55.840,0:34:00.400
but unfortunately we've got privacy frameworks 
that most people are more concerned about. And

0:34:00.400,0:34:07.440
when you talk to people dayto-day, they will tell 
me I'm really concerned about my data privacy.

0:34:07.440,0:34:11.520
But I'll challenge them and say, "But you're 
also concerned about getting your money back

0:34:11.520,0:34:16.400
if you are defrauded. So where do you want the 
balance to lie?" Because if you are defrauded,

0:34:16.400,0:34:21.680
you're going to call the bank and say, "Give 
me my money back." But at the same time,

0:34:21.680,0:34:32.400
we can't build effective controls when everything 
is operating in silos. Of course, if 40% of crime

0:34:32.400,0:34:38.960
is fraud related, the loss of money here, the 
sheer waste of money, it's like opening a tap

0:34:38.960,0:34:45.600
and letting it just drip out and 40% of all of 
that just is complete and utter waste. Is it not

0:34:45.600,0:34:53.200
then financially sensible to put the frameworks 
in place and look at all this GDPR and you know

0:34:53.200,0:34:58.560
move things around a little bit to protect us so 
that we're not losing money. Not so much for the

0:34:58.560,0:35:06.560
government because they've built the new framework 
with the A fraud reimbursement. So for the voter

0:35:06.560,0:35:13.360
on the ground you or I you will likely get your 
money back if it's a smallcale fraud. Okay. So if

0:35:13.360,0:35:19.040
it's a small scale fraud, banks, payment firms 
are now under reimbursement requirements where

0:35:19.040,0:35:23.920
they must reimburse you. There are a couple 
of different points around that. There are

0:35:23.920,0:35:28.480
some limits, there are some nuances which I 
won't go into, but they must reimburse you.

0:35:28.480,0:35:34.720
So from a government perspective for their voters 
actually for smallcale fraud, which accounts for a

0:35:34.720,0:35:39.680
lot of fraud, pretty much everyone's going to get 
their money back and they're happy. But actually

0:35:39.680,0:35:48.480
that means that the financial services market is 
shouldering the financial burden of fraud. So they

0:35:48.480,0:35:54.320
are reimbursing you but actually who's spending 
the money to then go and actually recover those

0:35:54.320,0:36:00.000
funds. Some of the funds can be recovered but 
where they can't be recovered ultimately it's the

0:36:00.000,0:36:06.240
financial services firms that are shouldering the 
burden which for me is a challenge because a lot

0:36:06.240,0:36:12.480
of the frauds come from social media platforms 
they come from ask you about them ex yes they

0:36:12.480,0:36:20.800
come from different players so they're almost the 
source or the facilitators of the fraud and they

0:36:20.800,0:36:25.760
are shouldering no responsibility I was going 
to ask you about them and and they should show

0:36:25.760,0:36:30.640
shoulder responsibility. If the fraud is occurring 
on their platforms that they've not put the

0:36:30.640,0:36:36.080
mechanisms in place to protect people, why haven't 
they? They haven't put it in place because they

0:36:36.080,0:36:44.800
don't need to. Um they do make a lot of money. Um 
and they have incredible engineers that can build

0:36:44.800,0:36:51.920
incredible monitoring models to take down scams. 
Now, if you take Facebook for example, uh they

0:36:51.920,0:36:57.520
do do this. They do claim to take scams down, 
but there are so many scams that are not being

0:36:57.520,0:37:02.960
taken down. If you take Instagram for example, 
there are lots of investment scams, investment

0:37:02.960,0:37:10.880
influencers that are claiming you can go and make 
millions by investing in some scam products. Uh,

0:37:10.880,0:37:15.840
a lot of those are still not being taken down and 
once people pay into those, that money goes into

0:37:15.840,0:37:22.000
the system and it's being reimbursed by banks 
where they're shouldering the responsibility.

0:37:22.000,0:37:28.400
There are some different policy statements that 
might look at bringing social media for example

0:37:28.400,0:37:34.480
and telecommunications platforms into some form of 
reimbursement scope but the operational logistics

0:37:34.480,0:37:39.760
around that would be very complicated. So I 
think it still needs fleshing out as to how

0:37:39.760,0:37:47.440
it looks like but for me they absolutely need to 
be brought into scope otherwise you will not stop

0:37:47.440,0:37:52.160
half of the sources of of fraud scams. I mean the 
problem's big enough. It's deep enough. We've all

0:37:52.160,0:37:56.320
been affected. And as far as I'm concerned, the 
government needs to be talking to you all the

0:37:56.320,0:38:00.960
time, having you go everywhere with them and just 
sorting it out. And yes, we need accountability

0:38:00.960,0:38:06.320
across all these different almost like entities. 
Wherever the fraud happens, where the fire starts,

0:38:06.320,0:38:11.120
sparks, you know, you're accountable in that area. 
You know, if you're the social media platform,

0:38:11.120,0:38:15.440
it's starting there, it's growing there, it's 
spreading. That's the source. That's what needs

0:38:15.440,0:38:20.560
to change. Exactly. But it's almost going in 
the opposite direction with some of the messages

0:38:20.560,0:38:28.800
coming out of the US government because of course 
they're very very pro business um very pro- crypto

0:38:28.800,0:38:33.760
and loosening some of the regulatory requirements 
around some of those big tech firms. That's kind

0:38:33.760,0:38:40.960
of the primary motivator at the moment instead 
of putting in the right regulatory frameworks to

0:38:40.960,0:38:47.600
protect consumers. So I think we might actually 
be going back in a different direction depending

0:38:47.600,0:38:53.280
on the pressure that comes from the US. I mean I'm 
definitely pro business and and the you know but

0:38:53.280,0:39:00.800
I do feel like there are ways of doing business 
and you can be sensible and and safely and still

0:39:00.800,0:39:05.680
make money but then you're losing money. So they 
shouldn't see it as Yeah. I mean the same the same

0:39:05.680,0:39:11.040
for me. I mean I'm very very pro-sup supporting 
our financial services markets. Otherwise I've

0:39:11.040,0:39:18.080
got no job. I work closely with them dayto-day and 
I can see that they're shouldering a lot of a big

0:39:18.080,0:39:23.120
burden when actually that should be shared and 
if you look at the day-to-day consumer and the

0:39:23.120,0:39:27.520
people on the ground we've got too much fraud so 
we must do something about it and we must bring

0:39:27.520,0:39:35.040
them to scope yeah it's almost like we also need 
to I mean this podcast is useful to I know that

0:39:35.040,0:39:39.520
people will watching the elderly people will be 
watching all sorts and we're educating people in

0:39:39.520,0:39:45.440
a way you've got to educate the public as to what 
a scam looks like. What do you check for? I mean,

0:39:45.440,0:39:51.840
us on an individual level because we're the 
ones falling for it. Um, I suppose if they

0:39:51.840,0:39:56.320
use our image, that's a different story. But 
then there are protections that we can put in

0:39:56.320,0:40:00.640
place once we know that it's a danger. You know, 
the face recognition, switch that off. Don't use

0:40:00.640,0:40:06.000
it. You know, there's things that we can 
do to protect ourselves. Take that URL,

0:40:06.000,0:40:13.120
pop it into JGBT. Mhm. Or check that phone number. 
Who called me? Mhm. There are lots of things to

0:40:13.120,0:40:17.040
um protect ourselves. I think we've covered a 
few of them. You know, for example, the changing

0:40:17.040,0:40:23.120
of the icons on your phone. Um there's lots of 
small things, but ultimately the biggest thing

0:40:23.120,0:40:30.400
is to just question everything before you make 
a payment. And it's a sad situation to be in,

0:40:30.400,0:40:38.560
but always question. Um, and what I have with my 
grandparents, my parents, my family members, if

0:40:38.560,0:40:44.480
they get something that does that just looks off 
or any requests, they will screenshot it and send

0:40:44.480,0:40:50.800
it to me and just put it through a bit of a filter 
to say, "What do you think?" And just taking that

0:40:50.800,0:40:57.440
that minute to think about why you're making 
the payment. Does this make sense? It probably

0:40:57.440,0:41:02.720
doesn't. If it's come through urgently, then 
it probably doesn't. There were another really

0:41:02.720,0:41:10.800
good example, my mom got a message saying, "Hi, 
it's your daughter Jess." Because they can see,

0:41:10.800,0:41:16.240
you know, from social media who that is. I'm in 
a really difficult situation. Lost my phone on

0:41:16.240,0:41:24.160
another person's phone. I need money now. And of 
course, as a as a mother, she thought, "Hang on a

0:41:24.160,0:41:29.200
second. My daughter's in trouble." But she took 
that extra step to actually just call me on the

0:41:29.200,0:41:34.160
number that she knows is my number. Yeah. To say, 
"Jess, is this you? Are you in trouble?" I said,

0:41:34.160,0:41:39.040
"No, I'm not in trouble." And that's exactly what 
she needed to do was to take that extra minute,

0:41:39.040,0:41:47.200
question it, ask people, and then don't make 
any payments. Yeah. Gosh, I've had quite a lot

0:41:47.200,0:41:54.240
of texts actually going, "Hi, mom. Can you call 
me back? Hi, Mom. This that, you know, I'm also

0:41:54.240,0:41:59.600
I'm lost. I'm in trouble. I'm this. I'm that. Can 
you help me, please?" Those I've had, but it's a

0:41:59.600,0:42:05.520
random number. I don't know it. Why would you be 
Exactly. Just block me. Exactly. Yeah. Block all

0:42:05.520,0:42:10.720
the time. But then you've also got just annoying, 
you know, business calls and things that you

0:42:10.720,0:42:17.440
block. But my husband has this thing where he's 
just any number that he doesn't recognize. Any

0:42:17.440,0:42:23.360
number is straight voicemail. He will never answer 
a number he doesn't recognize ever. Mhm. Is that

0:42:23.360,0:42:29.120
a good idea? I do exactly the same. Do you? Um, 
and if it's a number that I need to call, they'll

0:42:29.120,0:42:33.520
leave a voicemail and I'll call them. They'll 
leave it if it's absolutely. And if they don't,

0:42:33.520,0:42:39.520
they'll email me. Um, you know, if it's one of my 
clients calling me on my mobile and I don't have

0:42:39.520,0:42:43.200
their number, they will either leave a voicemail 
or they'll email me and I'll call them straight

0:42:43.200,0:42:49.040
back. Yeah. Sensible businesses, people will 
leave a voicemail. They won't just keep calling

0:42:49.040,0:42:53.680
you in all these different numbers and things or 
they're trying to spam you or sell you something

0:42:53.680,0:42:59.680
or pressurize you into It's It's not a good look. 
Yeah. No. Although sometimes, you know, you've got

0:42:59.680,0:43:03.280
to take that call. The other day I did take a 
a number that I didn't know and I was right to

0:43:03.280,0:43:08.240
because it was the decorator. He was just trying 
to say, I mean, are you are you I'm here now. Are

0:43:08.240,0:43:12.000
you outside your house? Yeah. So, something just 
I I knew I suppose in the back of my mind I knew

0:43:12.000,0:43:16.800
that I was expecting because I'm very suspicious 
if I ever see a Mhm. and I don't want to be

0:43:16.800,0:43:21.200
harassed and it's a difficult situation, but 
that's that's the way to deal with it is to be

0:43:21.200,0:43:29.280
constantly suspicious. Um, but then like I said 
a few moments ago, there are a lot of positives

0:43:29.280,0:43:35.680
here as well. I don't want to scare people into 
just being constantly um, suspicious all the time,

0:43:35.680,0:43:43.280
but there are lots of exciting things happening 
at banks at FinTech to try and help you process

0:43:43.280,0:43:49.520
payments safely. So when for example on your 
banking app when you're making a payment you

0:43:49.520,0:43:55.360
might now see a million and one questions that say 
do you want to make this payment? Are you sure you

0:43:55.360,0:43:59.680
want to make this payment? Can you explain why 
you're making this payment? And whilst that might

0:43:59.680,0:44:06.960
be annoying actually it's designed to take you 
through that that pausing reflecting and thinking

0:44:06.960,0:44:13.840
process before you verify any sort of large 
movement of fund of funds to a new third party.

0:44:13.840,0:44:18.400
So, that's what it's designed to do. It might 
be annoying, but please do take note and think

0:44:18.400,0:44:21.600
about those questions when you get them 
if you're just about to move your money

0:44:21.600,0:44:30.400
somewhere. I did notice those messages coming up, 
actually. So, top three red flags for scamming,

0:44:30.400,0:44:39.760
what would they be? So, for me, the top three, 
I mean, the first would definitely be speed. So,

0:44:39.760,0:44:44.960
um, and the urgency. Speed or urgency. I don't 
know if that's one or two, but the urgency. Um,

0:44:44.960,0:44:50.960
if you have got something that is coming through 
with urgency, not many things are that urgent. So,

0:44:50.960,0:44:56.560
if it's an urgent, please move the funds, it's 
it's highly likely to be a scam. Um, the second

0:44:56.560,0:45:04.720
red flag is anything around sort of the emotional 
manipulation. Um, so whether or not it's and again

0:45:04.720,0:45:09.760
it ties back to the urgency, so some form of 
emotional manipulation. Um, and then the third

0:45:09.760,0:45:18.480
if it's just something that you don't recognize. 
So, if it's a uh new third party or a different

0:45:18.480,0:45:24.560
payment that you don't recognize and it feels off, 
then it probably is off. Then it's probably off.

0:45:24.560,0:45:31.680
And we've spoken about the elderly and teenagers 
being, you know, the particularly at risk of this,

0:45:31.680,0:45:36.400
but it sounds like not only we're all at risk, 
corporations are at risk. We're actually all all

0:45:36.400,0:45:44.880
of us are at risk. So, if you could leave people 
with one, it's difficult, but one golden rule

0:45:44.880,0:45:51.760
before transferring any money online, what would 
that be? It's very difficult to try and nail it

0:45:51.760,0:46:01.520
down to one. Um, I think the one would have to be 
question it and think and take that moment before

0:46:01.520,0:46:07.360
you make the payment. Um, I mean, it can be very 
difficult, for example, if you're in the middle

0:46:07.360,0:46:13.120
of a six-month romance scam, to take that minute 
and to take take time to think and question, but

0:46:13.120,0:46:19.200
ultimately do just just think, just question. Hang 
on. Have I done the right due diligence checks for

0:46:19.200,0:46:27.440
this? Do I know the person? Why am I doing this? 
And that that's the thing to do. Jessica, it's

0:46:27.440,0:46:32.400
been an educational pleasure having you on. Thank 
you so much. No problem. It's been a pleasure.