How to Build "Instant Connection" with Anyone (Backed by Science)

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What the research shows us that sometimes 
people do just click and we can see that

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in brain scans. The people who felt closest 
to each other were showing the most similar

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brain activity. Does it count if you 
have a pet? Even having a connection

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with a pet is better than nothing. Pets are 
VIPs in our life and they need to be treated

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accordingly. How dangerous is loneliness? 
The lonier people are more likely to die

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at an earlier age. I'm David Robson. 
I'm an author and science writer. I've

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written three books. The intelligence trap, the 
expectation effect, and the laws of connection.

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The intelligence trap that is about why smart 
people make stupid decisions. The capacity

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to update our beliefs is really fundamental to 
rationality. What is a genuine connection? We come

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to form a shared reality with the other person. 
Why do so many high achievers end up feeling so

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disconnected? Successful people are going to face 
the same challenges as the average person and they

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become very dogmatic my way or not at all. There's 
lots of benefits to being introverted. Extroverts

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often are perceived as being quite shallow. What 
they could really learn from is how to listen

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more attentively to people. Why is it so hard for 
people to admit they're wrong? We begin to attach

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our expertise and our performance to our ego. Why 
do some people seem more naturally charismatic

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than others? If you really want to see who gains 
the most respect, it is having for the viewers,

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if they can take away one thing from the research 
that you've done that can really help turn their

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lives around, what would that be? Evidence backed 
and very powerful. And that is I'm an expert in

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psychology and neuroscience and um the ways 
that we can improve our behavior to increase

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our well-being, both mental and physical. David, 
lovely to have you on the show. We love experts

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that help us improve our minds, our mindset just 
to be better at everything that we're doing,

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to be braver, just a a allround better performing 
human and that's why you're on. Can you help us

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with this? I certainly hope so. You certainly hope 
so. you know, that's really um the main kind of um

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inspiration and driver for my career has always 
been a kind of personal curiosity for what I can

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do to improve my own thinking and how I can change 
my own behavior to um be more productive but also

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kind of happier, more relaxed, healthier and you 
know then that's what I want to communicate to

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other people. So every article I write is really 
it starts from some personal question that I've

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got and then I want to tell people what I found 
out about that. Okay. So, so if you don't mind,

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and you don't have to answer it if you don't 
want to, but why is it personal? Yeah, I guess

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like when I was a kid, you know, I was just always 
interested in the workings of the human mind and

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kind of, you know, how I could be kind of the 
best um the best possible version of myself,

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you know, at school, at university. Why Why were 
you thinking like that as a young kid? That's not

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normal, is it? No, it's not. But you know what? 
I was like I was probably quite insufferable as

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a kid, actually. It was and it's something that 
emerged like very early on. I remember coming

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home from school and complaining to my parents. 
I was like I just learned nothing today and I

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was so frustrated by that because I just there 
was something that I felt like if I was spending

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my time on something I wanted to do it well and I 
wanted to it was like personal growth was always

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just really fundamental to me. Yeah. Okay. And 
and was there something that you were personally

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besides not being taught, you know, at school, was 
it something you were struggling with or was there

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something you wanted to overcome or what was it? 
I guess that kind of crystallized into a concern

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about mental health in my teens um when I did 
start to get um really depressed and really shy. I

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just had like terrible social anxiety from around 
the age of 15 onwards. And so that was when this

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kind of general interest in the human mind became 
a bit more um kind of existentially important for

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me I guess because I could just see like the whole 
of my life playing out and I was like I don't want

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to feel like this in my 30s or 40s or 50s like I 
really want to find a way through these feelings

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that I'm experiencing. So in that stage you know I 
got into a lot of things like mindfulness you know

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and even self hypnosis which um you know back then 
um there wasn't so much scientific evidence for

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that but actually you know now we do know that the 
kind of hypnotic state can actually be very useful

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for overcoming um certain barriers like anxiety 
um and then when I started my um career in science

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journalism well that's when I really started 
delving much more into the literature so um

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you know really trying to find like the evidence 
based strategies that could help me to overcome

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some of those problems. You know, I still suffered 
depression into my 20ies and and anxiety. And so,

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um, you know, I just love that approach. I think 
it just really clicks for me having a scientific

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background. You know, I I don't just want to kind 
of hear platitudes and I don't want to give them

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to other people. I want to know that it has been 
tested and to really understand the nuances of

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those findings, too, because there's never going 
to be one technique that works for everyone.

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But it can be really revealing to work out well 
why does it work for me or why doesn't it and

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what other approach might be useful. So I'd say 
over those you know like 18 years now I've really

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developed this kind of toolkit that I can go 
to when I'm in a you know low point or when I'm

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facing some kind of barrier with my work and you 
know I can pick and choose which tools are most

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appropriate for that particular situation. Yeah, 
I love that you've Well, thank you for sharing

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that. And uh social anxiety is a very real 
thing and a lot of us suffer with it. I mean,

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I had a degree of social anxiety when I I went out 
of work for a period of time to, you know, bring

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the kids up and and I I went into that world and I 
just didn't see many people apart from, you know,

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the the play club or whatever was dropping them 
off at nursery, but really I was more, you know,

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dare I say hermit, you know, at home and I just 
was in that world. And then when you propelled

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out of it, it's really scary. Suddenly you think, 
you know, you've what's this feeling? Why am I so

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anxious to be around these people and I'm being 
asked questions and there's eyes on me and I feel

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uncomfortable and it's a very horrible feeling. 
Yeah. It's not nice. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

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Like I feel at its worst it's almost like you're 
kind of you don't have a skin. you've just got

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kind of cellophane or something kind of covering 
your internal organs and it's like everything

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feels like it's on display and you feel kind of 
embarrassed by that, shame by that. And every

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kind of move you make, every time you try to um 
account for your shyness, it feels like you make

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it worse and worse. And then the problem with that 
is you then because you know you feel like that

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you avoid the situations. You see, oh no, there's 
a group of moms. Oh, I'm not they're going to ask

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oh I don't want to talk to and you avoid them. 
you avoid that situation and then it reinforces

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that yes that's scary you don't go near it and it 
just becomes worse and worse and in a way you've

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got to do the opposite unfortunately horribly but 
that's the only way it is yeah I mean avoidance in

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in general in psychology is considered to be a bad 
strategy to deal with the bad strategy yeah like

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it's a very counterproductive way to deal with 
the things that um scare us because ultimately

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by avoiding it you kind of build it up in in your 
mind to be even worse than It really is. Whereas

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actually we talk about approach and avoidance 
and approach is the better um response. But

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obviously we also need the kind of cognitive tools 
to be able to approach a situation and to be able

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to manage the stress that we're feeling. And so 
that's what um a lot of what I write about really

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is giving us those tools to do so. Yes. So you you 
see and this is why I love having you on as well

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because you hear a lot of this misinformation 
going around on the internet. people advising

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that have no real qualifications whatsoever 
to be advising and they really shouldn't. Um,

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saying things that aren't necessarily helpful, 
that haven't been tested scientifically. And I

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am careful to bring on experts, people that 
really know their stuff, that believe it,

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and also even better, someone that's experienced 
it themselves. You really know, you can understand

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and read with people, and that's why you're on. 
And I'm hoping that and I have a lot of questions

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to get through but I'm hoping that um whilst you 
know you answer these we can answer some of the

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questions that these people have that we have I 
have and um we can all get better together through

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science and tested techniques. Yeah. Yeah. I mean 
that is what I strongly believe and it's what I'm

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trying to do in everything I write is to yeah 
to help as many people as possible to kind of

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um live up to their potential and to not be held 
back to not be avoiding those situations. Yeah.

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Okay. So the first question I have is about 
genuine human connections and why they're so

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powerful in everything in our success in our 
health in our happiness. What is a genuine I

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mean we can Yes. A connection. Does that mean 
you you know each other really well and you

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speak a lot? What is a genuine connection? Yeah. 
I mean so you know what I think what we've all

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experienced is that actually you can feel a very 
strong genuine connection with someone who maybe

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you've only spoken to for 5 minutes. Like it just 
clicks. And I had that with my friend Allesia in

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um I was doing some filming in um Sardinia 
for a documentary for the uh BBC and she was

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the producer. had never met before, but it's like 
within 5 minutes we knew we were going to be very

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good friends and you know uh six years later like 
I call her my sister, she calls me her Fredella,

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you know, and so I really strongly believe in 
that and that is what the research shows us that

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um that sometimes people do just click for other 
in other relationships that can take you know a

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long time but the one thing that all of those 
relationships have in common is that we come

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to form a shared reality with the other person and 
that is this um kind of deep conviction that We're

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processing the world in the same way. In a similar 
way. Yeah. Exactly. At a very kind of visceral

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level. So you might be laughing at the same jokes 
or you know you see the same event happen and you

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you're both thinking the same thing. You're 
finishing each other's sentences or you know

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interrupting each other is sometimes considered 
rude but with these people it's natural because

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you're on the same wavelength. And we can see 
that in brain scans. Um, which I really love that

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there's this kind of neural literal truth to the 
idea that you're on the same wavelength because

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what you see is when you scan these people's 
brains, what they're watching in the experiment,

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it was like a series of YouTube clips of music 
videos, comedy clips, documentaries, you know,

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all of these things. Um, but what you saw was 
that the people who felt closest to each other

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were showing the most similar brain activity. 
that their brains were somehow in sync. You know,

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at each point in the clip, they were showing 
the same responses, whereas people who weren't

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really that good friends, you know, they were 
showing very different neural responses. Okay.

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Does that where we're on the same wavelength come 
from? Oh, yeah. Exactly. I mean, I think we kind

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of literal wavelength. Yeah. We understood it kind 
of intuitively before it was proven scientifically

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and now it's proven scientifically. So, our brains 
operate in a similar way or we want so desperately

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to be understood. Yeah. Don't we? Yeah, we do. 
I mean that I think is um the kind of core of

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connection is feeling understood and feeling 
seen. And so actually when we look at all of these

0:11:20.640,0:11:29.760
studies showing that um social connection is so 
important for um kind of our health and longevity.

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I think really the one of the best measures for 
that is just do you feel understood by the people

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around you? And people who do feel understood and 
supported, they're the ones who have the better

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mental health, but also better physical health. 
Wow. You could take that further and put it

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into government and say, "Oh, do these countries 
understand each other? Are they working together

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or they're completely on a different wavelength, 
you know, wanting different things? It expands,

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doesn't it?" Yeah, I think it does actually that, 
you know, sometimes the dynamics that are working

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at an individual level also make sense at kind of 
um a societal level level or even internationally

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like you say. Yeah. Like sometimes I feel like 
knowing this and and I agree with it. Let's have

0:12:10.160,0:12:16.800
a little tea, a little tea sip that it would 
be better to trap leaders who are arguing in

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the same room. You know, give them food and 
everything and say right now you guys come to

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an understanding. We'll leave you alone, but you 
sort it out. Stop affecting your entire country

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with this toxin. Just sort it out. We'll we'll 
see you in whenever you decide to be Yeah. Well,

0:12:33.760,0:12:39.040
funny enough wish that. Funnily enough, I was at 
a neuroscience conference about 10 years ago and

0:12:39.040,0:12:44.160
this um neuroscientist was telling me that, you 
know, her personal theory is that we just need

0:12:44.160,0:12:50.320
to get world leaders into like um relationship 
counseling. Yeah, it's true. Yeah. And go through

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all of those honestly because they're sending all 
these other people on their behalf and they never

0:12:55.280,0:13:00.240
really sit down and chat. But they need to be 
that. In fact, every country should demand you to

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have to get in a room and talk. Yeah. Stop using 
other people to communicate for you. Yeah. Yeah.

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Yeah. Totally right. I mean, okay. So, so we're 
going to go to the other end of it. Loneliness.

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Yeah. What what how dangerous is loneliness? 
Um, so loneliness is incredibly dangerous. Um

0:13:19.920,0:13:25.920
so I kind of alluded to this earlier but actually 
you know there's now you know more than a hundred

0:13:25.920,0:13:31.920
um of these longitudinal studies where you um 
follow populations of thousands of people over the

0:13:31.920,0:13:36.080
course of their lives and you look at the kind of 
risk factors that there are for different diseases

0:13:36.080,0:13:41.280
and mortality overall and what you find it doesn't 
really matter how you measure loneliness whether

0:13:41.280,0:13:47.520
it's you know asking people how supported and 
understood they feel ask them simply how many

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friends they have what their daily interactions 
are. You know, whatever measure you use, you

0:13:51.440,0:13:57.600
find that the lonlier people are more likely to 
develop short-term illnesses like catching a cold,

0:13:57.600,0:14:02.160
long-term illnesses like cardiovascular disease 
and Alzheimer's disease, and they're just more

0:14:02.160,0:14:07.280
likely to die at an earlier age because of all of 
this. So, it's it's kind of a cumulative risk that

0:14:07.280,0:14:12.560
the longer you feel lonely for over the course of 
your life, the the more likely you are to suffer

0:14:12.560,0:14:19.840
from all of those negative outcomes. Does it count 
if you have a pet? pets can really help. And so I

0:14:19.840,0:14:27.040
think that's also the important thing to remember 
is that you know loneliness can be experienced

0:14:27.040,0:14:33.200
differently by different people. So for for 
me for example like I do quite like having a

0:14:33.200,0:14:38.240
broad social network but it's even more important 
for me to have just a few people who I feel very

0:14:38.240,0:14:43.440
connected to. Other people might want might put 
much more value on you know just the sheer number

0:14:43.440,0:14:47.920
of connections they have. For some, it could just 
be having like a spouse that really understands

0:14:47.920,0:14:53.760
you. Um, they're all good in different ways. And, 
you know, even having a connection with a pet is

0:14:53.760,0:14:58.640
better than nothing. But, um, gosh, a connection 
with pets is brilliant. Yeah. I mean, sometimes

0:14:58.640,0:15:02.960
I think we undervalue those relationships. And 
also, we don't have a way of talking about the

0:15:02.960,0:15:08.880
grief when a pet dies when actually they can be 
such a stable and core part of your life. And yet,

0:15:08.880,0:15:14.000
society as a whole is kind of like, you know, 
we don't really have funerals for pets. We don't

0:15:15.200,0:15:20.720
Stop that right away, immediately. And we're 
putting it out there on this podcast. Pets are

0:15:20.720,0:15:26.480
very important, like VIPs in our life, and 
they need to be treated accordingly. Right.

0:15:26.480,0:15:30.880
Exactly. Yeah. And people's emotional responses 
to that should be respected. Should be very much

0:15:30.880,0:15:37.920
respected. And it's a serious thing to be grieving 
after a pet. Yeah. Okay. on high achievers. Why do

0:15:37.920,0:15:44.560
so many high achievers, really successful people 
actually, um, end up feeling so disconnected,

0:15:44.560,0:15:47.600
you know, despite having all these people 
around them, advisers and everything,

0:15:47.600,0:15:52.160
they're kind of like on an island sometimes. Yeah. 
You know, I've been thinking this a lot um because

0:15:52.160,0:15:58.560
of Taylor Swift's like huge success. And and then 
people were saying about her latest album like,

0:15:58.560,0:16:03.680
"Oh, well, she doesn't seem that happy." And 
I'm I kind of feel but she's a human being.

0:16:03.680,0:16:08.160
she's doesn't matter how much material success 
she's got, there's still going to be people

0:16:08.160,0:16:13.440
who are kind of dissing you, who you don't feel 
connected to. You know, like successful people are

0:16:13.440,0:16:20.080
going to face the same challenges as um kind of 
the average person and also they maybe they find

0:16:20.080,0:16:24.560
it harder to form that shared reality with people 
because there are so few people in the world who

0:16:24.560,0:16:29.760
kind of have the particular set of circumstances 
and pressures that they're experiencing. Um,

0:16:29.760,0:16:35.040
so I think that does um kind of, you know, 
I think it's not just like Taylor Swift,

0:16:35.040,0:16:39.280
it's not just pop singers. I think that's probably 
true in lots of different spheres. Yeah. I mean,

0:16:39.280,0:16:44.320
it's even CEO. So, for example, if you have, let's 
say there's a big company, a corporation, and then

0:16:44.320,0:16:49.920
at the top you've got the CEO. So, and and that's 
there's lots of people in the company, high high

0:16:49.920,0:16:53.360
level manager, mid-le manager, whatever you want 
to call it, and then the employees and everyone's

0:16:53.360,0:16:58.000
there and and then let's say you've got a party 
after work and everyone's sort of chatting amongst

0:16:58.000,0:17:02.240
themselves cuz they're on a similar understanding 
on a similar level and then the CEO walks in and

0:17:02.240,0:17:07.360
it's like, oh, the CEO and people are too scared, 
you know, and the CEO is feeling awkward and it's

0:17:07.360,0:17:14.240
totally a vibe like bad vibe. the power dynamics 
can be very difficult um yeah because um you know

0:17:14.240,0:17:18.160
because people do feel that fear and you know they 
shouldn't feel fear but I think it's it's kind

0:17:18.160,0:17:26.240
of right in some ways that there is a you know 
that if you've established a hierarchy within an

0:17:26.240,0:17:30.560
organization there's benefits to that but there's 
also kind of costs personal there's also costs

0:17:30.560,0:17:35.840
personal costs and it is that then people feel 
a bit awkward around you or and then you've got

0:17:35.840,0:17:39.760
people like Oprah and that who then say you know 
I've learned to say no and to put those barriers

0:17:39.760,0:17:44.640
in because when you are very successful then 
everyone comes to you for things and that's nice

0:17:44.640,0:17:48.960
because you can help with a lot of things but then 
sometimes it's also not nice because you just been

0:17:48.960,0:17:56.400
flooded with requests. Yeah, exactly. And I think 
one of the main problems I imagine for someone in

0:17:56.400,0:18:02.480
that situation as well is it it's very difficult 
for you to kind of talk about the pain that you're

0:18:02.480,0:18:07.360
feeling and the loneliness you might be feeling 
because the assumption is well you've achieved

0:18:07.360,0:18:12.400
so much what do you have to complain about your 
situation can't be comparable to my situation but

0:18:12.400,0:18:17.440
actually I think we do need to have compassion 
for these people you know because doesn't matter

0:18:17.440,0:18:21.120
you know what situation you're in if you're 
feeling isolated from others that's a terrible

0:18:22.240,0:18:28.160
painful um position to be in. And so, you 
know, yeah, we need to separate, I guess,

0:18:28.160,0:18:34.080
people's material success from, you know, the 
kind of everyday human feelings that they'll

0:18:34.080,0:18:38.880
be experiencing. And they deserve just as much 
compassion and respect as anyone else. Okay. So,

0:18:38.880,0:18:42.400
the world since co has moved into 
a lot of this remote working. So,

0:18:42.400,0:18:47.280
a lot of us are working from home. Maybe not 
the whole week, but most days of the week,

0:18:47.280,0:18:53.520
some days of the week. And that can also be lonely 
but you're not really seeing anyone. Um so how do

0:18:53.520,0:19:01.120
you build connection when you're actually isolated 
physically? Yeah, it's um you know it's a big

0:19:01.120,0:19:05.680
problem I think that has emerged in the last 
5 years and you know I feel it as a freelancer

0:19:05.680,0:19:11.680
as well. So you know all of my work is remote um 
I would say the research shows that those remote

0:19:11.680,0:19:18.480
conversations that we have are still valuable. So 
you know there's some Yeah. So there's some some

0:19:18.480,0:19:22.320
kind of cynics think that you know connection 
doesn't happen unless you're kind of having a

0:19:22.320,0:19:28.000
face tof face conversation. But actually the 
research shows you know um video calls give

0:19:28.000,0:19:32.560
you a pretty good sense of being connected 
with someone because you can read their body

0:19:32.560,0:19:38.080
language. You know phone calls are still pretty 
valuable because you can hear their tone of voice.

0:19:38.080,0:19:43.520
But even like a short text message you know can 
establish some kind of connection with someone.

0:19:43.520,0:19:48.080
um especially if you've already established that 
shared reality with them. So you already have that

0:19:48.080,0:19:52.800
rapport and then those like quick texts are just 
kind of reminding you of that. So it could just

0:19:52.800,0:19:58.880
be a funny gift that reflects a kind of shared 
joke and reestablishes that connection or just

0:19:58.880,0:20:04.560
sharing the news in your life. You know, all of 
these things are valued. Um so I think we can

0:20:04.560,0:20:08.160
be conscious of that and try to make the most 
of it. But I do think we do also have to think

0:20:08.160,0:20:14.880
carefully about our schedules to try to get the 
um uh the kind of the face tof face connections

0:20:14.880,0:20:20.160
where we can as well and you know maybe even if 
the traveling is inconvenient you know we have

0:20:20.160,0:20:24.800
to recognize that is a price we have to pay to 
get that it's you know like paying for premium

0:20:24.800,0:20:29.440
foods that are more nutritious like it's worth the 
investment to do that. It's worth the investment.

0:20:29.440,0:20:35.040
It's why I love an in-person conversation as well 
for podcasts because it's just better. It's it's

0:20:35.040,0:20:39.440
a it's it's deep. It's a deep especially for 
deep subjects. You want to see the person and

0:20:39.440,0:20:43.520
how they're responding, you know, you you want 
to have that. And but there's friends that I have

0:20:43.520,0:20:48.080
that are very good at that. They will always be 
the ones that schedule the next thing. And that

0:20:48.080,0:20:51.040
even if you're not reaching out cuz you're in your 
own little world, they'll always tap in and go,

0:20:51.040,0:20:55.680
"Hey, you free for lunch? Let's do this." And 
they they'll always reach out. It's it's almost

0:20:55.680,0:21:01.840
like really good habit that they've got. Some 
people just have that. I don't know. Yeah. No,

0:21:01.840,0:21:07.920
they do. Um, I have to say I'm not one of those 
people actually. I'm uh a little bit too passive

0:21:07.920,0:21:13.200
um with friendships. But um you know something 
I'm working on especially after having written

0:21:13.200,0:21:20.240
the laws of connection um because I guess with 
that book I I learned that there were there's lots

0:21:20.240,0:21:25.040
of kind of psychological barriers we have that 
prevent us from um reaching out to other people.

0:21:25.040,0:21:30.000
And one of them is just that we're very kind of 
pessimistic about how much other people value us.

0:21:30.000,0:21:35.520
So I think for someone like me who's a little kind 
of socially anxious anyway, I'm kind of just a bit

0:21:35.520,0:21:40.480
too reluctant to suggest to someone let's meet 
up because my assumption is it will be an incon

0:21:40.480,0:21:45.280
inconvenience for them. But the research shows, 
you know, this is quite a common bias and it's

0:21:45.280,0:21:49.760
probably wrong like they probably they're probably 
feeling like I am like they want someone to reach

0:21:49.760,0:21:56.000
out and they're maybe feeling a bit shy too. Yeah. 
So you know if we can try to become that person

0:21:56.000,0:22:00.880
um it's better for everyone. Oh, I love that. I 
love that. But I love also what you said earlier

0:22:00.880,0:22:06.240
about reestablishing a connection. So even that 
little funny joke or whatever it is, you're just

0:22:06.240,0:22:10.560
tapping in and you're showing someone you care. 
And you're saying the connections are are good.

0:22:10.560,0:22:14.800
They're good for all of us. They're good for our 
health. They're good for our brains. Yeah. Yeah.

0:22:14.800,0:22:21.360
They really are. Um so there was a huge uh meta 
analysis. Now what we mean by that in science is

0:22:21.360,0:22:26.720
where you kind of gather all the evidence to date, 
look at all of the studies, perform statistical

0:22:26.720,0:22:32.160
tests to make sure that the effect that has been 
reported is reliable and robust and to measure the

0:22:32.160,0:22:39.280
average size of that. So across lots of studies. 
Um and what these um this meta analysis showed was

0:22:39.280,0:22:45.200
that actually loneliness can be as dangerous as um 
lots of other health factors that we just take for

0:22:45.200,0:22:51.600
granted. So whether you smoke, whether you drink, 
um uh whether you um are vaccinated, take blood

0:22:51.600,0:22:59.360
pressure medication, you have as dangerous as if 
not more than most of those. Yes. Most of those.

0:22:59.360,0:23:07.120
Yeah. And I think we just don't fully accept 
that at the moment. But I think that's changing.

0:23:07.120,0:23:12.640
So the World Health Organization has set up a task 
force to try to promote this message and to get

0:23:12.640,0:23:19.360
people to take it as seriously as diet or exercise 
for example. Um the former US um surgeon general

0:23:19.360,0:23:24.160
did the same. You know it's breaking through but 
I think we need much more public health messaging

0:23:24.160,0:23:31.520
on that. Yes. And and also because the more we 
communicate and interact with people and spend

0:23:31.520,0:23:36.400
time with people the better we get at interacting 
with people and spending time. It's like working a

0:23:36.400,0:23:43.680
muscle. It really is. Um and actually you can see 
big benefits quite quickly. So there was one study

0:23:43.680,0:23:49.440
um that it it basically took the form of an app. 
So it's giving people what was called a scavenger

0:23:49.440,0:23:54.640
hunt and it was just saying talk to strangers but 
you know like the app gave people goals like talk

0:23:54.640,0:24:00.720
to someone um with a cool pet or great hair 
or who's doing something artistic in public.

0:24:00.720,0:24:06.720
Um and you know they kind of tracked like how 
often people were doing that and also how they

0:24:06.720,0:24:12.080
felt afterwards. And what they saw was that on 
the first day lots of people felt very shy. They

0:24:12.080,0:24:18.640
were experiencing this thing called the liking gap 
which is you know that gap in um perception where

0:24:18.640,0:24:24.640
you you think that the situation is going to be 
more awkward and more painful than it really is

0:24:24.640,0:24:28.880
and then actually afterwards you know you find 
that you did build that rapport quite easily.

0:24:28.880,0:24:33.760
So people had quite a big kind of uh perception 
gap at the start you know where they were feeling

0:24:33.760,0:24:39.920
very anxious after just 5 days that gap had 
already closed. So they were already coming to

0:24:39.920,0:24:45.200
um recalibrate their expectations and to recognize 
that more often than not those interactions were

0:24:45.200,0:24:51.520
going to be fulfilling for both parties and they 
were going to get this mood boost you know um just

0:24:51.520,0:24:56.480
from reaching out to someone and I think that's 
incredible just you know 5 days of exercising that

0:24:56.480,0:25:03.680
social muscle is enough to bring about a change in 
the way we feel. Wow. Wow. So, what if you're not

0:25:03.680,0:25:08.160
naturally a um you know an extroverted person? 
Because there are some that have got that have

0:25:08.160,0:25:12.000
no problem talking to anyone and anywhere. But 
what if you're not? What if you're analytical and

0:25:12.000,0:25:17.520
you're introverted and you are painfully shy and 
it's scary. You don't want to speak to strangers,

0:25:17.520,0:25:23.360
you know. Yeah. Um you know, there's lots of 
people who feel like that. Um myself included. But

0:25:23.360,0:25:28.640
I I suppose what this this study that I mentioned 
kind of what that already shows us is that even

0:25:28.640,0:25:33.520
people who were feeling pretty anxious beforehand 
were benefiting. And there have been others that

0:25:33.520,0:25:39.760
have specifically measured people's introversion 
and then encouraged them to act more gregariously.

0:25:39.760,0:25:45.280
And what they found was that the people who scored 
higher on the personality trait of introversion,

0:25:45.280,0:25:52.640
they did feel more pessimistic than extroverts to 
start with, but they gleaned just as much benefit

0:25:52.640,0:26:00.160
from that afterwards. So pushing them pushing 
through their introversion helped them to feel

0:26:00.160,0:26:05.760
um kind of greater reward at having had this 
social interaction. And I would say, you know,

0:26:05.760,0:26:08.960
lots of people are proud introverts. And if 
you don't want to change your personality,

0:26:08.960,0:26:12.880
maybe you feel like you're getting enough social 
connection as it is, there's no reason why you

0:26:12.880,0:26:18.320
should feel obliged to change your personality 
just to fit with society's expectations. And I

0:26:18.320,0:26:22.880
think Susan Kane's book, Quiet, kind of helped us 
to realize that there's lots of benefits to being

0:26:22.880,0:26:26.880
introverted. But what I find encouraging about 
that research is that shows that if you want

0:26:26.880,0:26:32.160
to if you feel that your introversion is actually 
leading to loneliness, then there is a way through

0:26:32.160,0:26:37.760
that. And you can choose which situations you act 
introverted in and which situations you act more

0:26:37.760,0:26:42.720
gregariously and extroverted. It doesn't have 
to be one or the other. You have that power. At

0:26:42.720,0:26:45.840
the same time, you probably have some extroverts 
that probably shouldn't be speaking to everyone.

0:26:45.840,0:26:50.080
They're talking to too many people and they need 
to bring it down. Well, so that's the other side

0:26:50.080,0:26:54.080
of this research. I know some people like this, 
right? Yeah. And that was something that surprised

0:26:54.080,0:27:00.400
me with researching the laws of connection was 
that um yeah, extroverts often are perceived as

0:27:00.400,0:27:05.120
being quite shallow actually. So they might think 
they've got great people skills, but often they

0:27:05.120,0:27:10.160
don't. Um, and what they could really learn from 
is how to listen more attentively to people. Uh,

0:27:10.160,0:27:15.120
because um, the perception of extroverts 
is that they often they'll say platitudes,

0:27:15.120,0:27:19.200
but you're not really establishing that shared 
reality because they're spreading themselves too

0:27:19.200,0:27:23.200
thinly maybe. Yes. And they're possibly saying 
things they shouldn't because they're maybe not

0:27:23.200,0:27:26.560
they're so extroverted that they're not actually 
reading. Maybe an introvert would be a little

0:27:26.560,0:27:31.280
bit more careful and read the body language and 
perhaps assess the situation a bit more carefully.

0:27:31.280,0:27:37.040
the extrovert will dive in and then possibly 
say something they shouldn't say or it's a bit

0:27:37.040,0:27:40.800
they just haven't read the room as well. It's too 
much. You don't always have to speak either. No.

0:27:40.800,0:27:46.080
Yeah. Yeah. And that is I think that's almost the 
kind of tragedy here is that introverts are maybe

0:27:46.080,0:27:52.880
better equipped to form those really authentic 
deep relationships but they they avoid the

0:27:52.880,0:27:58.480
situations in which they might be able to avoid 
it. They avoid it. It's fascinating actually.

0:27:59.120,0:28:07.200
So can mindset actually alter after measurable 
things like fitness, immune response or pain?

0:28:07.200,0:28:13.680
Can your mindset actually change these things 
in all of these factors of your life? It can.

0:28:13.680,0:28:21.200
So that was the big question that I set out to 
um to understand in the expectation effect. Um,

0:28:21.200,0:28:26.000
and you know, there's a century of research 
looking at an expectation effect called the

0:28:26.000,0:28:30.720
placebo effect, which I think we all know. You 
know, positive expectations about medications

0:28:30.720,0:28:35.680
often bring relief even if you're actually taking 
a sugar pill. Yeah, it's a real thing. You know,

0:28:35.680,0:28:41.280
we know that it has physiological effects on 
the body. So, it can change things like the

0:28:41.280,0:28:46.000
um expression of the indogenous opioids in the 
brain that will help to reduce inflammation and

0:28:46.000,0:28:50.160
pain, for example. So, you know, we've known 
for a long time the placebo effect is a real

0:28:50.160,0:28:55.760
thing and that it can be powerful. Um, but what 
this latest research covers that I was looking

0:28:55.760,0:29:01.920
at for the expectation effect that showed that 
our mindset can have a similar it can produce

0:29:01.920,0:29:09.200
this kind of placebo type effect in other areas 
of life. So, fitness, how we respond to a diet,

0:29:09.200,0:29:14.880
how we deal with sleep loss, how we cope with 
a stressful situation, even how we physically

0:29:14.880,0:29:21.200
age as we get older. And it sounds incredible, but 
it's all backed up by really robust research. And

0:29:21.200,0:29:28.080
there's always these kind of very um well accepted 
plausible biological mechanisms. You know, this

0:29:28.080,0:29:32.560
isn't kind of calling on the law of attraction 
or something pseudoscientific. You know,

0:29:32.560,0:29:38.080
we we know what the connections are between the 
brain and the body that could produce those. So

0:29:38.080,0:29:44.400
there's things happening with mindset. This is how 
in layman's terms here. So there there are literal

0:29:44.400,0:29:51.920
things happening within the body that are helping 
you just by changing your mind about something.

0:29:51.920,0:29:57.920
Yeah. Exactly. And that shouldn't be as surprising 
as it is when you if you just think about it in

0:29:57.920,0:30:02.160
terms of like what happens during your day. You 
know, you start thinking about your favorite meal,

0:30:02.160,0:30:07.440
your mouth starts watering. Yeah. Your stomach 
starts rumbling. Well, that is a change in

0:30:07.440,0:30:12.080
mindset has changed your body in those ways 
because your brain is controlling the release

0:30:12.080,0:30:17.840
of enzymes that will help you to digest your 
food and or if you think about an upcoming

0:30:17.840,0:30:23.200
um job interview for example, you might start 
getting butterflies in your stomach. Um you you'd

0:30:23.200,0:30:26.800
find that your blood pressure was increasing 
a little bit. You know, that is another case

0:30:26.800,0:30:32.560
of our mindset shaping our physiology. Yeah, what 
the research is doing is just kind of adding more

0:30:32.560,0:30:37.040
nuance to that and looking at well, how can we 
change our mindset and in what ways to produce

0:30:37.040,0:30:41.920
the the biggest benefits for us in each of these 
specific situations? Yeah, I've had things where,

0:30:41.920,0:30:48.080
you know, as a child, I used to run a lot and if 
my mindset was I'm going to do so well in this

0:30:48.080,0:30:52.960
race, I would just have that mindset for a race 
just no real reason why this race, but I just knew

0:30:52.960,0:30:56.720
I would do really well in this race and I would 
know even, you know, before the race started,

0:30:56.720,0:31:02.160
I would I'm going to do so well in the race. I did 
really well in the race. Then today if I think, oh

0:31:02.160,0:31:08.160
no, that's going to give me anxiety. That's really 
not. I get so anxious. If I I almost know what's

0:31:08.160,0:31:13.600
going to happen. But you're saying that your 
mind is programming you in that direction. You've

0:31:13.600,0:31:19.040
decided something. So therefore, all hormones and 
blood systems and heart and everything is going

0:31:19.040,0:31:26.800
to the sail is set. Yeah. Uh yeah, it is. But but 
you so I think stress and anxiety is a really good

0:31:26.800,0:31:34.400
example here because um what I'm not saying is 
well just um repress your stress like just ignore

0:31:34.400,0:31:38.880
it. Yeah. You can't actually the research shows 
if you just try to kind of stamp down on stress

0:31:38.880,0:31:44.640
you actually feel even more stressed because it's 
another responsibility. So what we can do rather

0:31:44.640,0:31:51.200
than trying to kind of remove it is just think 
is is change the way we think about stress and

0:31:51.200,0:31:56.400
its effects. So, um, a lot of us, and I think 
this has really been promoted in our culture,

0:31:56.400,0:32:02.960
we see stress as just this inherently bad thing. 
It's like this monster that we have to avoid or

0:32:02.960,0:32:06.480
it's going to be bad for our health and it's 
going to be bad for our performance. So, we we

0:32:06.480,0:32:11.520
see it as inherently debilitating. So, when you 
start feeling those butterflies in your stomach

0:32:11.520,0:32:16.400
and your heart racing, you become even more scared 
because you're like, well, I can't I can't do this

0:32:16.400,0:32:21.760
interview now because I'm going to be performing 
worse. Um, so you're adding another layer of worry

0:32:21.760,0:32:28.480
and it gets through this kind of vicious cycle of 
catastrophizing that actually that then impairs

0:32:28.480,0:32:34.000
your performance. Now there's another perfectly 
rational way of viewing stress and that is that

0:32:34.000,0:32:41.360
it's an adaptive response that was um that 
evolved to help us to boost our performance in

0:32:41.360,0:32:47.200
the situations where we needed it. So, not just 
running away from like the lion in the forest,

0:32:47.200,0:32:54.640
but also hunting for our own prey or, you know, um 
trying to impress the other people in our group so

0:32:54.640,0:33:00.960
that we would maybe rise the ranks in the social 
hierarchy. And what the research shows is that

0:33:00.960,0:33:04.640
you actually you tell people about this and you 
explain some of the benefits of stress. The fact

0:33:04.640,0:33:09.440
that when your heart is racing, it's pumping a 
lot of oxygenated blood around your body which is

0:33:09.440,0:33:15.440
leaving you energized. um the fact that you know 
those jangling nerves well that's actually a sign

0:33:15.440,0:33:21.920
of cortisol which is kind of waking you up and 
making you more alert and more focused. Now you

0:33:21.920,0:33:27.360
tell people about those benefits. You've changed 
their mindset. So stress is no longer this monster

0:33:27.360,0:33:33.120
but something that can be maybe not enjoyed but 
something that you can accept is a necessary part

0:33:33.120,0:33:37.920
of dealing with the challenge that you're facing. 
A tool. It's like your AI. It's a tool. Yeah.

0:33:37.920,0:33:43.360
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. AI. And what you find is that 
then you know you change people's mindset just

0:33:43.360,0:33:48.800
like that just through education that they then 
first of all they perform a lot better. So this

0:33:48.800,0:33:53.680
has been shown in like really difficult graduate 
records examinations in the US for example or you

0:33:53.680,0:33:58.640
know you have people with high maths anxiety 
who then take their um high school exams and

0:33:58.640,0:34:04.160
they perform much better because they've managed 
to see that their stress is actually enhancing and

0:34:04.160,0:34:09.040
energizing their performance. They perform better 
at public speaking. they perform better on the

0:34:09.040,0:34:15.520
sports field. You know, all of these ways they're 
performing better and physiologically their bodies

0:34:15.520,0:34:19.680
are responding to this stress differently. So, 
yeah, they're still having that racing heart,

0:34:19.680,0:34:24.640
but their blood pressure isn't spiking so 
dramatically. Their cortisol levels aren't

0:34:24.640,0:34:28.640
spiking so dramatically. They're actually 
having a more muted stress response. So,

0:34:28.640,0:34:33.280
it's kind of more more adaptive to the 
situation at hand. And then afterwards,

0:34:33.280,0:34:39.280
they're better able to relax. So the body goes 
more quickly into the rest and digest um state

0:34:39.280,0:34:43.200
that it needs to kind of maintain your organs, 
which is really important for your long-term

0:34:43.200,0:34:49.040
health. And that's really powerful just from a 
reappraisal of you know how you're feeling. So

0:34:49.040,0:34:52.800
you're not changing how you're feeling. Exactly. 
You're just changing how you think about what's

0:34:52.800,0:35:00.720
going on. Yeah. You've mentioned expectation 
effect. So just so we all are clear on you've

0:35:00.720,0:35:06.320
written a book about expect the expectation 
effect. So can you just tell us what is the

0:35:06.320,0:35:12.960
expectation effect? Um so we understand and how is 
that different to manifestation? Okay. The whole

0:35:12.960,0:35:20.400
manifestation culture. Yeah. Um so the expectation 
effect is um this phenomenon where our beliefs

0:35:20.400,0:35:26.720
create self-fulfilling prophecies. And so that can 
be through changes to perception. You know it just

0:35:26.720,0:35:32.640
changes your kind of mood um essentially or it can 
change what you focus on in your environment. Um,

0:35:32.640,0:35:38.080
you know, if you focus on like a a happy face in 
the crowd or the kind of angry face in the crowd,

0:35:38.080,0:35:42.400
what you see. Yeah. So, what you see the yellow 
car. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Um, through

0:35:42.400,0:35:49.120
changes to your behavior. So, changing moving 
you from avoidance to approach, for example,

0:35:49.120,0:35:54.720
encouraging you to just do the workouts that 
you've been avoiding. And then physiologically,

0:35:54.720,0:36:00.160
which we've spoken about. So that kind of mind 
body connection um in which our mindset is

0:36:00.160,0:36:05.040
actually changing the way our body responds to a 
challenge. So that's the expectation effect. It's

0:36:05.040,0:36:11.760
got those free mechanisms. Now manifestation I'm 
sure is very useful for lots of different people.

0:36:11.760,0:36:16.880
Um but I do see a lot of pseudocience around 
this as well and because I don't think it's as

0:36:16.880,0:36:23.360
specific as the science on the expectation effect. 
So I don't think it's looking at these particular

0:36:23.360,0:36:29.200
situations and kind of determining when it can 
help and when it can't. And sometimes with these

0:36:29.200,0:36:34.560
ideas like the law of attraction where you're 
you're thinking well I will just imagine my

0:36:34.560,0:36:41.440
bank account filled with money and then somehow 
that money will just come to the religious well

0:36:41.440,0:36:45.440
you call them religious but I won't name just in 
case I get into trouble but there's some that say

0:36:45.440,0:36:51.440
you know yeah just think of that car think of your 
Ferrari and you'll just have the Ferrari. Exactly.

0:36:51.440,0:36:55.600
And I don't want to insult people who believe 
in that. Um, it's just I personally don't think

0:36:55.600,0:37:00.480
that has any scientific basis for it. Now, I still 
think actually, you know, sometimes it might work

0:37:00.480,0:37:05.600
for some people because if they're changing their 
mindset in that way, sometimes it might be shaping

0:37:05.600,0:37:11.440
their behavior, for example. So, it could be that 
if you're really like um focused on getting rich,

0:37:11.440,0:37:17.280
you're also more likely to notice opportunities to 
start your own business or to apply for a job that

0:37:17.280,0:37:21.280
maybe beforehand you wouldn't have felt confident 
enough to apply for, but you just think, well,

0:37:21.280,0:37:25.600
you know, I'm manifesting this, so I might as well 
go out and get it. I think that is healthy. But

0:37:25.600,0:37:31.680
what I don't think is healthy is kind of sitting 
at home visualizing all of these things but not

0:37:31.680,0:37:40.320
really then having any means of actually achieving 
that actions and physical happenings I'm going to

0:37:40.320,0:37:47.280
call them now in a non-scientific way. Okay. So, 
can negative expectations then damage your health,

0:37:47.280,0:37:53.520
damage your performance? Having negative thoughts? 
Because I had someone in here um a a facialist to

0:37:53.520,0:38:01.040
the royals who built an empire, global empire in 
skincare. And um the one thing she captured wants

0:38:01.040,0:38:10.560
nothing to do with is that negative what mindset, 
let's call it negative mindset. And if she spots

0:38:10.560,0:38:16.400
something even remotely negative, she goes, "Never 
do that again." H interesting. And I just thought,

0:38:16.400,0:38:25.600
"Whoa, relax." But she's right. And she's, you 
know, what's that then? Yeah. Um to my that's a

0:38:25.600,0:38:35.040
little extreme. Um but I um it is certainly true 
that negative expectations can have um you know,

0:38:35.040,0:38:42.000
a real influence on important outcomes. Yeah. 
And so, you know, in in medicine, for example,

0:38:42.000,0:38:47.760
we've spoken about the placebo effect, but um 
there's also uh what's often known as the kind of

0:38:47.760,0:38:54.640
evil twin, which is the nosibo effect, and that is 
where negative expectations create noibo effect.

0:38:54.640,0:39:02.080
Nosibo. So, it comes from Latin to mean kind of um 
I will harm rather than I will please. Um wow. And

0:39:02.080,0:39:09.600
you know um a lot of drug side effects um are kind 
of amplified by a noboa effect. So you're warned

0:39:09.600,0:39:16.480
by your doctor that your pills might create you 
know headaches or nausea and then through the mind

0:39:16.480,0:39:21.600
body connection your brain is then creating those 
symptoms and they're you know physically real.

0:39:21.600,0:39:25.600
So for example when people are warned that they 
might get a headache even though they're taking

0:39:25.600,0:39:32.080
a sugar pill. Um yeah and you can see that there 
are changes in you know like neurotransmitters

0:39:32.080,0:39:36.560
things that would change the vascule of the 
brain you know make those vessels a little

0:39:36.560,0:39:41.120
more dilated which might be behind the pain you 
can see those kinds of changes just like we saw

0:39:41.120,0:39:46.880
with the placebo effect and I experienced this 
myself when I was on a course of anti-depressants

0:39:46.880,0:39:51.760
um and this was actually what inspired um the 
expectation effect for me so my doctor had

0:39:51.760,0:39:57.200
warned me you might have you know bad headaches 
because of these and you know within a few days

0:39:57.200,0:40:04.080
had the same I read that and take it seriously. 
Exactly. And um but luckily I was writing a piece

0:40:04.080,0:40:09.200
about the mindbody connection for the BBC at 
the time. And so that made me think, well,

0:40:09.200,0:40:13.600
I'm just going to actually look at the scientific 
literature, like, you know, how much of this is an

0:40:13.600,0:40:20.560
inevitable um biological reaction to the chemicals 
in the pills and how much, you know, might it

0:40:20.560,0:40:26.240
just be an expectation effect? And what I found 
from that was, well, actually, when you compare,

0:40:26.240,0:40:30.160
you know, people taking the drugs with people who 
believe they're taking the drugs, but they're not,

0:40:30.160,0:40:36.480
actually, you see that there's a really sizable 
nibbo effect there. Sizable. Yeah. So, you know,

0:40:36.480,0:40:42.160
I'd say the majority of people who experience the 
headaches, you know, are probably experiencing it

0:40:42.160,0:40:47.840
because of their expectations. And opening my mind 
to that possibility. It is that is powerful. And

0:40:47.840,0:40:53.680
opening my mind to that possibility um kind of 
made the pain disappear almost immediately. So,

0:40:53.680,0:40:58.480
that then made me think, you know, well, what 
else can our expectations do? And that was why

0:40:58.480,0:41:05.040
I started collecting you know a whole body of 
like 400 papers um that eventually became the

0:41:05.040,0:41:12.720
expectation effect. Wow. This is very empowering. 
You realize how strong your mind is. Yeah. Yeah.

0:41:12.720,0:41:18.160
Exactly. Okay. And then you wrote a book 
called The Intelligence Trap. Yeah. That

0:41:18.160,0:41:23.520
was my um first book in my first book. So tell us 
about intelligence trap. What what's it about? Uh

0:41:23.520,0:41:31.600
so that is about um why smart people make stupid 
decisions and how to avoid doing that ourselves. A

0:41:31.600,0:41:41.520
nice title. Do do smart people make stupid or bad 
decisions? Um yeah, worryingly frequently. Yep. Um

0:41:41.520,0:41:47.040
and so there are what I discovered was that there 
are lots of reasons for that. one is the fact that

0:41:47.040,0:41:51.520
um so you know IQ I'm not going to bash IQ 
because I think it certainly you know has

0:41:51.520,0:41:55.760
its place in scientific research and it does 
correlate with some important things like

0:41:55.760,0:42:01.520
um um educational achievement primarily but also 
then you know how people do in their careers um

0:42:01.520,0:42:07.840
so there is something in IQ that matters um it's 
it is reflecting the kind of efficiency of our

0:42:07.840,0:42:13.200
neural networks to a certain degree but I kind of 
compare that to the engine of a car so you could

0:42:13.200,0:42:20.000
have like a super fast engine, but but it's if you 
don't have like a good suspension, good steering,

0:42:20.000,0:42:25.280
a GPS to guide you on the right route, like that 
can just drive you off a cliff really quickly if

0:42:25.280,0:42:30.640
you don't have checks and balances to kind of keep 
it in control. And that's really what happens with

0:42:30.640,0:42:36.400
um the intelligence trap is that, you know, we 
need all of these other traits that I write about.

0:42:36.400,0:42:45.520
So things like um intellectual humility, 
open-mindedness, um uh and the ability to take

0:42:45.520,0:42:53.440
other people's perspectives, you know, things that 
aren't measured by Q that um can prevent us from

0:42:53.440,0:42:58.960
um from driving off that cliff. I love that 
you I love that you're writing about this and

0:42:58.960,0:43:04.320
talking about this because the other day I was 
actually looking into I don't know what I was

0:43:04.320,0:43:10.720
doing it for. I think research research um and 
uh I looked at different types of how how are

0:43:10.720,0:43:18.160
intelligence types categorized and yes you've got 
the the more academic intelligence which is a lot

0:43:18.160,0:43:24.960
of it is is what you've learned memory retention 
but then there is another that's a a pillar and

0:43:24.960,0:43:29.680
um some people have you know everyone has some 
level of it but you might have more or less but

0:43:29.680,0:43:34.640
another massive pillar is emotional intelligence 
and I suppose some of the things that you were

0:43:34.640,0:43:40.720
mentioning there would fall into that. Yeah. And 
um it's possibly one of the most powerful forms

0:43:40.720,0:43:46.480
of intelligence. Um and then there was another 
one which is it's almost like an intelligence

0:43:46.480,0:43:55.120
that allows you to adapt and learn on the fly. So 
nothing taught nothing memory retained but solving

0:43:55.120,0:44:00.000
on the problem. Yeah. Kind of I don't remember 
flexible intelligence or something like that.

0:44:00.000,0:44:04.480
Yeah. Exactly. I mean cognitive flexibility is 
hugely important and that doesn't automatically

0:44:04.480,0:44:11.520
go with um um kind of IQ style intelligence, 
analytical intelligence. No. And so there was some

0:44:11.520,0:44:18.240
great work by this guy called um Keith Stanovich 
who was working in Toronto. And so he came up with

0:44:18.240,0:44:23.520
something called the rationality quotient and that 
was essentially looking at how susceptible people

0:44:23.520,0:44:31.040
are to cognitive bias. So those things that the 
Nobel Prize winner Daniel Carnean looked into. So

0:44:31.040,0:44:37.360
anchoring which is where you know you're buying 
a house and your estate agent shows you a super

0:44:37.360,0:44:44.400
expensive house first of all and then shows right 
and then they show you something not so good um

0:44:44.400,0:44:49.280
but because they've anchored your idea of what a 
reasonable price for a house is you then pay more

0:44:49.280,0:44:55.600
for the second term cruel. So um he looked at all 
of these kind of things and what he found was that

0:44:55.600,0:45:02.560
um um you know the the two are just imperfectly 
correlated and so what that means is that you can

0:45:02.560,0:45:08.560
have some people who are highly intelligent but 
also highly susceptible to cognitive bias. And

0:45:08.560,0:45:15.600
he calls this discretionalia. So it's a kind of 
akin to dyslexia where you know dyslexic people

0:45:15.600,0:45:21.280
can score really highly on all kinds of areas of 
intelligence but it's a kind of isolated issue

0:45:21.280,0:45:27.600
with um with reading. Well with discretionalia 
it's the same. You can score great on cognitive

0:45:27.600,0:45:34.560
tests but then when it comes to actually making a 
rational judgment you're failing. Um now the the

0:45:34.560,0:45:39.200
good thing about that is that well first of all 
he thinks that by measuring it you know you can

0:45:39.200,0:45:44.160
identify you know who might be most suitable for 
particular roles and who wouldn't be suitable

0:45:44.160,0:45:49.680
because the potential for cognitive bias to 
do damage would be so much greater. But also

0:45:49.680,0:45:55.600
the the good news is that often we can by learning 
about those biases we can increase our rationality

0:45:55.600,0:46:00.560
equation. So there are ways to become more 
rational whatever your intelligence. I've never

0:46:00.560,0:46:05.040
heard about that. That that's a fascinating 
way to think about human behavior. It will

0:46:05.040,0:46:11.200
also explain to a large extent why some people 
choose the partners they do and get influenced

0:46:11.200,0:46:17.040
by people the way they do, you know, dragged into 
things and conned and Exactly. Yeah. And so one

0:46:17.040,0:46:21.600
of those biases that he looks at that I think 
is especially important is something called

0:46:21.600,0:46:28.160
um the sunk cost fallacy, which is once you've 
put a lot of investment into a project, you don't

0:46:28.160,0:46:33.120
want to let that investment go. So you might know 
like everything might be you know everyone might

0:46:33.120,0:46:37.760
be telling you this is failing like pull out but 
you don't because you can't bear to see all of

0:46:37.760,0:46:42.400
that money wasted and I think you know with like 
you were saying with relationships I think often

0:46:42.400,0:46:47.760
we've put in a lot of emotional investment there 
and so we we don't want to leave that person even

0:46:47.760,0:46:52.240
though we know they're not good for us. No but yes 
and I've got this I encounter clients like this

0:46:52.240,0:46:56.240
you know sometimes they're very precious about 
something that they've invested in. It's a lot of

0:46:56.240,0:47:01.040
money's gone into it, people's time, everything. 
It's an emotional thing as well. Yeah. And then

0:47:01.040,0:47:07.200
you kind of you do the the research that shows 
Yeah. possibly not a good idea. And then you've

0:47:07.200,0:47:12.960
got to be um a good business person, you know, 
you got to do the the right thing to sort of say,

0:47:12.960,0:47:20.560
but you've also got to manage personalities and 
be delicate and try and gently steer without sort

0:47:20.560,0:47:25.440
of destroying the relationship with a client. I 
mean it's which is where emotional intelligence

0:47:25.440,0:47:30.000
comes in. I think to be able to do that and 
on the side of the client I think they have

0:47:30.000,0:47:35.280
to use their emotional intelligence to recognize 
that okay it hurts but I'm going to feel better

0:47:35.280,0:47:43.200
in the long run if I scrap that and that's not an 
easy decision to come to. Not at all. Not at all.

0:47:43.200,0:47:47.840
It's a very difficult one. I find facts sometimes 
help but it's a presentation of facts that's the

0:47:47.840,0:47:56.960
more the more difficult thing. So um so do these 
successful people let's say business owners fall

0:47:56.960,0:48:04.160
into different types of thinking errors like do 
they do they make certain types of errors? Yeah.

0:48:04.160,0:48:09.760
You know I think there's such a wide span 
of potential cognitive errors that we can

0:48:09.760,0:48:14.560
make that we're all probably falling into some 
of them. But I'd say that one thing that seems

0:48:14.560,0:48:21.600
to afflict people with expertise in particular is 
this phenomenon called earned dogmatism. And it's

0:48:21.600,0:48:28.160
like you've reached a certain point in your career 
where you've kind of proven yourself. And so you

0:48:28.160,0:48:34.880
you come to to trust too much in your judgment 
because of that. And obviously expertise does help

0:48:34.880,0:48:40.800
um you to make better predictions for the future. 
But these people just close their minds to any

0:48:40.800,0:48:45.760
new information. and they just forget the 
fact that you know situations change they

0:48:45.760,0:48:50.560
lose that flexibility that we spoke about. So 
they become very dogmatic. It's like my way

0:48:50.560,0:48:57.520
or not at all. Um so that does seem to come with 
expertise and it's incredibly inhibiting because

0:48:57.520,0:49:04.960
um you know the the capacity to update our beliefs 
is really fundamental to rationality and so it's

0:49:04.960,0:49:10.160
exposing you to lots of different biases this 
process of earned dogmatism. I mean, I love

0:49:10.160,0:49:16.560
the way you you word things, the way that you just 
said the ability to update your beliefs. It's such

0:49:16.560,0:49:22.320
a beautifully it's it's just you've coined the 
term because that is what it is and yes, we have

0:49:22.320,0:49:28.080
our beliefs and we should be updating them. Yeah. 
Based on the information and we should never stop

0:49:28.080,0:49:32.960
growing. So, I love the update. It's like updating 
your apps and updating everything. You should be

0:49:32.960,0:49:38.000
updating these beliefs. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. 
you know in business it's a market can change

0:49:38.000,0:49:42.560
very quickly and you need to be prepared for that. 
You need to accept that sometimes everything that

0:49:42.560,0:49:48.480
you've thought you know is no longer applicable 
and so you have to start again um like in Zen

0:49:48.480,0:49:53.840
Buddhism you call this the kind of beginners's 
mindset and actually we we lose the beginner's

0:49:53.840,0:49:59.360
mindset when we accumulate our expertise but we 
should always retain a part of it always be ready

0:49:59.360,0:50:04.240
to learn more to grow like you said because that 
makes us more flexible and better able to deal

0:50:04.240,0:50:10.560
with new challenges. So why are we then so why is 
it so hard for people to admit they're wrong? All

0:50:10.560,0:50:16.720
of us included. It's difficult to say, "Oh, I made 
a mistake. I'm wrong." Why? It is. And I think a

0:50:16.720,0:50:25.120
lot of it is because we um we begin to attach our 
expertise and our performance to our ego and to

0:50:25.120,0:50:30.160
our identity. I think that's the main thing. 
It's like, well, if I no longer can predict,

0:50:30.160,0:50:36.080
you know, what's going to happen in my business, 
like, who am I essentially because I've I've I've

0:50:36.080,0:50:40.400
established so much of my identity around the fact 
that I'm a successful business person who knows

0:50:40.400,0:50:46.880
this market inside out. Um, and then it's it's 
just really painful to admit that maybe, you know,

0:50:46.880,0:50:53.280
you don't know as much as you did, um, as you 
thought you did. Um, but there are ways around

0:50:53.280,0:50:59.200
that. Um so one is to develop this growth mindset 
and to recognize that when you make a mistake that

0:50:59.200,0:51:04.720
is actually just a sign of growth. It's a it's 
giving you the potential for further improvement.

0:51:04.720,0:51:10.320
So if you you focus on your trajectory, it's not 
so scary if you make one mistake because it's not

0:51:10.320,0:51:15.280
going to bring you crashing down. It's just going 
to mean that you can actually um you know build

0:51:15.280,0:51:21.520
on your expertise and become even better. Um so 
that can be really powerful. Another is a process

0:51:21.520,0:51:26.560
called self-affirmation which um I don't like the 
term because it sounds a bit like manifestation

0:51:26.560,0:51:30.720
self affirmation. Okay. But but actually what 
this is is more just recognizing that there

0:51:30.720,0:51:35.120
are you know you're multifaceted as a person. So 
your whole identity doesn't have to rest on any

0:51:35.120,0:51:41.280
particular expertise or trait. And what you find 
is that when people you ask people to essentially

0:51:41.280,0:51:46.320
list like you know what are my best qualities 
and to explain why the you know top three are so

0:51:46.320,0:51:51.760
important for them. And it could be, you know, in 
addition to being an entrepreneur, I'm also um a

0:51:51.760,0:51:57.840
devoted uh mother or father or, you know, that I, 
you know, play music in my spare time. And that's

0:51:57.840,0:52:02.960
really essential for me, like that creativity. Um, 
you find you remind people that they're more than

0:52:02.960,0:52:08.400
just this one single trait and then they they 
find it easier to then recognize that they may

0:52:08.400,0:52:12.560
have made a mistake because it suddenly it doesn't 
feel like their whole identity is crashing. It's

0:52:12.560,0:52:18.480
just one part of them that that they can then grow 
and build again. Do you know why why I like to be

0:52:18.480,0:52:25.520
um a business owner, let's say? Um I and I really 
loved to be an employee as well and and do a job

0:52:25.520,0:52:30.960
really well. Okay, I loved that. The thing about 
the job that I did was I never quite thought that

0:52:30.960,0:52:36.880
I was good enough to do that job. It was very 
technical. I'm not that technical, you know,

0:52:36.880,0:52:42.160
lot of numbers. I mean, maths for me, but I had to 
do it all the time and details and everything. And

0:52:42.160,0:52:46.160
I thought, but I'm better at comms and I wish 
I did more people things. But I did that job.

0:52:46.160,0:52:51.200
I did it for a long, long time, but it really 
relied on me. And when I didn't do something

0:52:51.200,0:52:55.360
well or I wasn't able to do something as well 
as some other people that came really naturally

0:52:55.360,0:52:59.360
to them and they loved then, you know, number 
crunching all the programming and everything,

0:52:59.360,0:53:04.160
I it took a lot out of me to do it. I could do it 
eventually, but it just took so much energy out

0:53:04.160,0:53:09.920
of me. And then I would be hard on myself as well 
and I would um I would almost suffer in the fact

0:53:09.920,0:53:15.280
that I'm not I don't have this skill or I don't 
have that skill and I wish I was better at these

0:53:15.280,0:53:20.960
things. And it's like you you look at yourself in 
in in isolation in a way of the job that you're

0:53:20.960,0:53:26.640
doing. The good thing about having a business 
and working with other people is that it's then

0:53:26.640,0:53:34.320
okay to not have expertise like the detailed you 
know down to the most granular level expertise in

0:53:34.320,0:53:39.200
something specific. You bring in someone that's 
better than you. Yeah. about that thing and you

0:53:39.200,0:53:44.080
know you need to know enough but you have that 
it's almost like help in all these areas and

0:53:44.080,0:53:51.200
you bring these people and you you you realize the 
power of a team and it's just the most empowering

0:53:51.200,0:53:55.600
amazing thing and in a way you've got to let go 
of your ego you've got to then admit I can't do

0:53:55.600,0:54:01.840
everything I'm not good at this thing they are 
more skilled than me you've got to accept and

0:54:01.840,0:54:08.480
value that and I it it's that is a mind mind um 
set change. It's something I've It's like been a

0:54:08.480,0:54:15.040
journey. I've had to learn that. Yeah, definitely. 
It's not easy, but I think it is is demonstrating,

0:54:15.040,0:54:20.240
you know, what I referred to as intellectual 
humility there to recognize it's okay for me to

0:54:20.240,0:54:24.560
accept I don't know this and someone else knows 
it better because you can't know everything,

0:54:24.560,0:54:30.480
right? My identity isn't built around knowing 
everything. What I'm doing is bringing all of this

0:54:30.480,0:54:36.320
together and kind of helping to set the overall 
vision for what I'm creating. Yeah. Yeah. And then

0:54:36.320,0:54:40.240
you can appreciate the ones that love the numbers 
and that's what they want to do but they don't

0:54:40.240,0:54:44.880
want to do the talking necessarily with a client 
and then you all realize how beneficial it is to

0:54:44.880,0:54:51.520
work together and actually then you're a whole and 
then it's complete and everyone's skills are used

0:54:51.520,0:54:55.440
in the way that because everyone's got something 
to bring when you when you actually sit with a

0:54:55.440,0:55:01.520
person that's why I love the podcast you realize 
how much there is in in each person and you think

0:55:01.520,0:55:06.960
wow you know I I don't think about things that 
way and it's just incredible. I just find when

0:55:06.960,0:55:12.880
you give people that time and you open up to 
them what they bring, it is it is I mean it's

0:55:12.880,0:55:18.160
interesting. Yeah, totally. Yeah. And I think it's 
just really fundamental for leaders to understand

0:55:18.160,0:55:24.480
that you know acknowledging that there's a gap 
in your knowledge like that doesn't have to be

0:55:24.480,0:55:28.960
um a sign of weakness and that people don't read 
it as a sign of weakness. You actually get more

0:55:28.960,0:55:35.680
respect for doing that than for bluffing. um and 
you set a kind of culture where everyone then is

0:55:35.680,0:55:41.680
a bit more willing to be intellectually humble and 
the knock-on effect of that is that you then avoid

0:55:41.680,0:55:47.760
um those cognitive biases that I spoke about. So 
you're actually kind of by modeling that behavior,

0:55:47.760,0:55:54.400
you're really protecting your company from going 
down, you know, that terrible route of like a

0:55:54.400,0:56:00.320
company like Enron where there was very little 
intellectual humility. Okay. Do you want to just

0:56:00.320,0:56:04.640
tell people about what happened with Enrog, just 
in case someone doesn't know? Yeah. So, I'm no

0:56:04.640,0:56:09.680
expert at all, but I think like it was a company 
that was famous for, you know, having the smartest

0:56:09.680,0:56:14.720
people in the world working for it. And everyone 
was going to be the smartest person in the world.

0:56:14.720,0:56:19.920
Um, but they were also all covering up, you 
know, mistakes, dubious work practices, you know,

0:56:19.920,0:56:25.360
that ultimately led to the collapse of the company 
with like a huge knock on effect for the economy.

0:56:25.360,0:56:31.280
Um and so that's often in psychology and business 
psychology that is taken as this kind of example

0:56:31.280,0:56:37.360
of of the dangers of intellectual arrogance and 
you know you want to be very different from that

0:56:37.360,0:56:41.520
and I think someone like Warren Buffett is 
actually you know he's quite famous for his

0:56:41.520,0:56:46.960
intellectual humility and for his ability to 
update his beliefs based on new information

0:56:46.960,0:56:54.240
and so he's you know I'm sure he has flaws but 
he's often taken as you know better example of a

0:56:54.240,0:56:59.520
um a wise means of doing business because of 
this. Yes. And investing in yourself. That's

0:56:59.520,0:57:04.240
something that he always, you know, if you his tip 
to anyone starting off or anyone at all actually,

0:57:04.240,0:57:08.160
doesn't matter what age you are, is to take that 
time to invest in yourself. Do some courses,

0:57:08.160,0:57:13.520
work on your communications, the soft skills, you 
know, that that sort of interacting with people.

0:57:13.520,0:57:18.640
Yeah. Yeah. Which I wish we didn't call them soft 
skills because they're easily as important as the

0:57:18.640,0:57:25.040
hard skills. Um so I think we need to almost 
have a kind of image change here of what how we

0:57:25.040,0:57:30.000
value those other elements that actually in the 
expect in the intelligence struct I show it you

0:57:30.000,0:57:35.360
know just as important for making good decisions 
as say intelligence or expertise which would be

0:57:35.360,0:57:42.720
considered like hard skills. M I actually bring 
in um public speakers and trained actors onto

0:57:42.720,0:57:50.800
the show to help with coms, you know, to even how 
you speak on camera in a Zoom call and what you do

0:57:50.800,0:57:54.880
with your hands and what you do with your camera 
and your body language and what you even what you

0:57:54.880,0:57:59.920
wear, what you know, how you how you behave and 
um or whether you're standing on a stage. How do

0:57:59.920,0:58:03.920
you do that? Are there any hacks? Anything you 
can do with your voice? you know that wobbling

0:58:03.920,0:58:10.160
voice just before you the nervous swallow. It's 
a major problem for me. It's a major problem. But

0:58:10.160,0:58:15.120
there's things you can do. There's there's you can 
actually you really can and you can also hire a

0:58:15.120,0:58:20.160
personal coach. You can get training in that and 
they'll sit with you and they'll watch what you

0:58:20.160,0:58:25.200
Yeah. You know, we even have intelligence officers 
and people like that for body um body language

0:58:25.200,0:58:28.640
reading cues. you know what you do with your 
hands, how you sit, how you you know, he would,

0:58:28.640,0:58:32.720
for example, say you're sitting very confidently 
because you you've got your chest, you know,

0:58:32.720,0:58:37.600
you're not hiding your your body. So the way that 
you sit and you're open to receiving information

0:58:37.600,0:58:43.200
and it's it's important even how you sit. Yeah. 
Exactly. No. And we, you know, we're giving off

0:58:43.200,0:58:50.960
all of these cues that we don't realize. Um, I 
would say body language is really important, but I

0:58:50.960,0:58:56.800
think the substance of what you're saying is also 
so essential that um that if you are someone who,

0:58:56.800,0:59:00.160
you know, you're going into a meeting and you're 
really self-conscious of all of the way that

0:59:00.160,0:59:04.560
you're holding yourself, don't feel too nervous 
or worried about that. Don't catastrophize that

0:59:04.560,0:59:09.840
because actually if you have the competence 
and the warmth, those are the two things we

0:59:09.840,0:59:16.160
need for charisma. Competence and warmth. So, 
you seem like a genuine, honest person who's

0:59:16.160,0:59:20.720
willing to cooperate and you know what you're 
talking about. Those are the fundamentals that

0:59:20.720,0:59:24.480
people are going to be judging you on when they 
appraise whether you're going to be a good leader,

0:59:24.480,0:59:33.840
for example. Wow. I love this. I love this. Um, so 
we spoke a little bit about um the mindset of some

0:59:33.840,0:59:40.560
of the high achievers, they make mistakes and and 
um they're sort of closed off to to information.

0:59:40.560,0:59:47.680
Um, which is interesting, but I love the 
updating your beliefs. Um, so what's the most

0:59:47.680,0:59:56.640
surprising research you've seen on confidence and 
self-belief? Um, so there it's actually something

0:59:56.640,1:00:06.080
I'm researching for my next book. Um and it's 
basically it it's kind of extending what I wrote

1:00:06.080,1:00:12.800
about in the expectation effect but it's looking 
at this um quality called selfefficacy. So that

1:00:12.800,1:00:19.680
is your confidence. Can I you know do what needs 
to be done to reach my goal. It's as simple as

1:00:19.680,1:00:24.400
that. And so you can have self-efficacy in you 
know all different areas of your life. And it

1:00:24.400,1:00:30.160
might be different. Um, you know, you might have 
low self-efficacy in working out, for example,

1:00:30.160,1:00:36.160
but high self-efficacy in starting a new business. 
Um, but we also have, you know, there do tend to

1:00:36.160,1:00:40.720
be correlations between them. So that would mean 
that some people, you know, lack self-efficacy in

1:00:40.720,1:00:46.240
lots of areas in their life and some have high 
self-efficacy in um most of the areas of their

1:00:46.240,1:00:52.400
life. And what you see is that this is basically 
the number one psychological factor for predicting

1:00:52.400,1:00:59.200
who will um achieve what they want in that 
particular domain. It's you can look at all kinds

1:00:59.200,1:01:07.120
of different um factors that might influence it. 
So like education levels for example um you know

1:01:07.120,1:01:12.080
um self-esteem which is slightly different. That's 
about how you value yourself. So do you feel like

1:01:12.080,1:01:16.240
you're a worthwhile person or not? which isn't 
quite the same as feeling confident that you can

1:01:16.240,1:01:21.840
execute the right actions. Um, it just, you know, 
knocks the socks off of all of those other things

1:01:21.840,1:01:28.800
that we might think were important. Um, and so the 
big question is, well, how do we get become more

1:01:28.800,1:01:34.080
self-efficacious? How do we build that confidence? 
And there are a few different ways, but one of the

1:01:34.080,1:01:38.480
things that um is so important is just to make 
sure that when you're going kind of step by step

1:01:38.480,1:01:44.080
through your goal, you're kind of building up 
your competence slowly and at each point you have

1:01:44.080,1:01:50.000
a mastery experience. So you proved yourself that 
I was able to do this. Can I do the and then that

1:01:50.000,1:01:54.560
gives you the confidence that I can do the next 
thing well. So it's very relevant for example in

1:01:54.560,1:02:00.960
learning new skills. I think I've seen it say in 
public speaking you know like I didn't start kind

1:02:00.960,1:02:07.200
of giving talks to thousands of people to start 
with I would you know just practicing alone at

1:02:07.200,1:02:13.600
home to prove to myself that I could get through 
a talk you know get it actually store it in my

1:02:13.600,1:02:18.480
mind and produce it you know that built up my 
self-efficacy so that I could then practice giving

1:02:18.480,1:02:24.960
a talk to my friends and then to my colleagues 
and then giving you know bigger talks at literary

1:02:24.960,1:02:29.760
festival festivals and then a TEDex talk. So, you 
know, it's really important and I think one of the

1:02:29.760,1:02:36.960
big um reasons for failure is often we're just too 
ambitious. So, we're trying to do something that

1:02:36.960,1:02:41.520
um that is beyond our current skill set and that 
really damages our self-efficacy and leaves us

1:02:41.520,1:02:46.160
driver give up or just damages our confidence. 
So, we're having all of those terrible nerves. But

1:02:46.160,1:02:51.760
what the research shows is that everyone can build 
up their self-efficacy if they just take that slow

1:02:51.760,1:02:56.240
stepby-step trajectory and really plan it out 
accordingly. That's beautiful advice. That's

1:02:56.240,1:03:01.600
absolutely wonderful you said that there's a a 
a marathon runner. I don't know if you know him,

1:03:01.600,1:03:07.360
Elliot Kipchigi. Oh yes, I do. Yes. And um and 
they asked him, "Why don't you get nervous or

1:03:07.360,1:03:10.800
do you get nervous or what's going through your 
mind?" And you know when you're standing there and

1:03:10.800,1:03:14.480
you have to perform there's all these expectations 
on him you know to like he has to be the best all

1:03:14.480,1:03:19.040
the time and he's not always the best but he he 
has to go through that every time he stands on

1:03:19.040,1:03:25.520
that start line and he said what you just said 
which is I always remember the training that I

1:03:25.520,1:03:31.280
did. Yeah. All those mornings that I had to get 
up every run and how that's built up over time.

1:03:31.280,1:03:37.360
I know what I've done the work I've put in. Yeah. 
And that's easy to forget when and so reminding

1:03:37.360,1:03:42.400
ourselves of that journey is also a way to kind of 
boost our self-efficacy just before the important

1:03:42.400,1:03:47.200
event. And that's what I do before my book talks 
for example. It's like I remember is that I've

1:03:47.200,1:03:52.080
done this before. I've given talks. I've never 
had a disaster. I've done the research. I know

1:03:52.080,1:03:59.040
the material. You know, one time like I had a few 
notes on my iPad and then it ran out of battery

1:03:59.040,1:04:05.280
and you know and that was ah moment right it was 
actually the it was transformative in fact because

1:04:05.280,1:04:10.240
after that I felt so much more confident because 
then I just had to do it all from memory and I did

1:04:10.240,1:04:14.320
it fine and actually my publicist came up to 
me afterwards and she's like that was amazing

1:04:14.320,1:04:18.560
what's your secret you've improved so much and it 
was because you know I was in that moment spoke

1:04:18.560,1:04:24.640
naturally. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I I reappraised 
my stress response as well. So I was just telling

1:04:24.640,1:04:30.080
myself, you know, it's fine. You feel nervous, 
that's natural, but you you can do this. And is

1:04:30.080,1:04:35.200
actually helping you to remember more if you feel 
more alert than, you know, the worst thing would

1:04:35.200,1:04:40.880
be to give a talk and you're feeling quite so 
chilled, you're actually a bit drowsy and you're

1:04:40.880,1:04:46.000
not on top of it. So Okay. So I'm just going to 
ask you now, but I'm going to roll these two into

1:04:46.000,1:04:55.600
one. So um why do some people seem more naturally 
magnetic or charismatic than others? Yeah. Um so I

1:04:55.600,1:05:01.360
think this comes back to those two key factors. 
Um I think we can over complicate what charisma

1:05:01.360,1:05:06.320
is. But I think if you really want to see who 
gains the most respect, it is having confidence,

1:05:06.320,1:05:14.480
proven confidence in what you're saying and 
um warmth. And so I think warmth. Yeah. So,

1:05:14.480,1:05:21.680
you know how do you seem like the kind of person 
who is going to cooperate, who's genuine, who's

1:05:21.680,1:05:29.120
telling the truth um or do you seem like someone 
who is very polished and holding themselves back

1:05:29.120,1:05:35.120
and actually that is often what we mistake for 
charisma but it isn't what people the average

1:05:35.120,1:05:40.160
person is responding to. And so that that kind 
of makes me think of a finding that I found very

1:05:40.160,1:05:44.560
powerful while researching the laws of connection 
which was something called the beautiful mess

1:05:44.560,1:05:49.360
effect. Okay. So you look at someone like Princess 
Diana who I think we all agree had tons of

1:05:49.360,1:05:57.040
charisma. I mean totally incredible how popular 
she became when she gave her um interview to

1:05:57.040,1:06:03.360
Panorama. Like a lot of the royal family thought 
she had basically provided her own character

1:06:03.360,1:06:09.680
assassination because she had revealed her 
vulnerability. um she you know had said things her

1:06:09.680,1:06:14.320
own she had openly admitted to a lot of mistakes 
herself as well as the you know kind of general

1:06:14.320,1:06:18.560
problem she was facing with the royal family. 
So they were quite chilled about it actually.

1:06:18.560,1:06:23.760
They thought, you know, this is the end of Diana 
basically. But her popularity increased massively

1:06:23.760,1:06:29.440
after that interview. And it was because she had 
been open and honest and showed her vulnerability

1:06:29.440,1:06:34.560
that she actually gained a lot more respect. 
And I think that's a powerful demonstration,

1:06:34.560,1:06:39.040
you know, which has also been kind of proven in 
scientific experiments that actually showing your

1:06:39.040,1:06:44.320
vulnerability can actually be a way to charisma. 
Yeah. And she still did so in a very nice sort of,

1:06:44.320,1:06:50.720
you know, in a in a very elegant way, you know. 
Yeah. Um, yeah, she's incredible. I did see some

1:06:50.720,1:06:54.720
some social media about her how she interacted 
with the little kitties that she went to go

1:06:54.720,1:06:59.920
and see, you know, in all these these areas and 
she'd sit with them and be very warm and tactile

1:06:59.920,1:07:04.480
and just Exactly. So, I think all of, you know, 
and I know she's still a very divisive figure,

1:07:04.480,1:07:08.400
but I think it's kind of undeniable that she did 
have charisma and I think her vulnerability was

1:07:08.400,1:07:14.000
part of that is what helped so many people to 
relate to her and respect her. Yeah, it sort

1:07:14.000,1:07:19.360
of comes back to that emotional intelligence as 
well. Um, yeah. And the ability to read a room,

1:07:19.360,1:07:24.160
to read the the temperature of a country, to 
read the the temperature of an issue that's

1:07:24.160,1:07:30.000
going on and possibly how to react to it. I know 
that, right, is risky sometimes, you know, um,

1:07:30.000,1:07:34.720
to reveal your vulnerability, but, you know, there 
is research showing that it works for leaders,

1:07:34.720,1:07:41.600
you know, in business. Like I said, like kind 
of recognizing you your kind of intellectual

1:07:41.600,1:07:46.880
humility, you know, is respected, but also, you 
know, opening up to mistakes is respected too for

1:07:46.880,1:07:52.480
the same reason because people suddenly see like 
there's a human being behind that. Someone who is

1:07:52.480,1:07:57.280
warm and honest and cares about what they're doing 
and that's charismatic. Yeah. But then again,

1:07:57.280,1:08:01.920
you also have the celebrities, the tabloid things 
where they releasing absolutely everything. Every

1:08:01.920,1:08:06.160
bad, you don't even know if these things are even 
valid or some of them are making it up to get the

1:08:06.160,1:08:10.720
PR. Some of them take it so far. Every single 
bad thing in the whole universe has happened

1:08:10.720,1:08:14.480
to them and they're coming up with something 
new every week just to get into the papers and

1:08:14.480,1:08:18.960
it's almost too much of it and then it's, you 
know, yeah, sometimes this can be exploited

1:08:18.960,1:08:23.120
as well. I think it can and I think people do 
have quite a good filter, you know. It's like

1:08:23.120,1:08:28.720
um you can the worst thing is if it looks like 
you're lying or trying to be manipulative because

1:08:28.720,1:08:34.640
then that takes your warmth rating right down. If 
it looks like you're playing on people's emotions

1:08:34.640,1:08:40.480
just to kind of rise the hierarchy people is kind 
of an evolved response that we're very skeptical

1:08:40.480,1:08:45.200
of anyone who might be manipulating us. So I 
think it has to be a kind of you know genuine

1:08:45.200,1:08:51.360
authenticity. That's what you have to be aware of. 
you know, however you're acting, you know, is this

1:08:51.360,1:08:56.880
going to be perceived as authentic or is it going 
to be seen as some kind of power play? Um, that's

1:08:56.880,1:09:01.920
that's the kind of big rule I would say that um 
and anything that will be seen as manipulative is

1:09:01.920,1:09:07.440
going to backfire and we've seen that happening. 
We've seen it and even within the royal family,

1:09:07.440,1:09:12.400
we don't have to go into mentioning, but we've 
seen that happening happening a lot. Okay. So if

1:09:12.400,1:09:19.120
if for the viewers if they can take away one thing 
from the research that you've done scientifically

1:09:19.120,1:09:24.880
backed um that can really help turn their lives 
around, change their career path if that's what

1:09:24.880,1:09:32.160
they want to do. What would that be? Um so forgive 
me because this is going to sound very soft, but I

1:09:32.160,1:09:38.720
mean I it's evidencebacked and very powerful and 
that is to treat yourself with self-compassion.

1:09:38.720,1:09:46.960
Um, now we kind of I think you know you hear the 
word self-compassion and it seems like I don't

1:09:46.960,1:09:53.280
know it seems like you might be just talking about 
kind of luxuriating in your sorrow or you know

1:09:53.280,1:09:58.640
um indulging yourself. Um, and we kind of pride 
ourselves in having very high standards and being

1:09:58.640,1:10:04.800
my you know lots of people say I'm my I'm my 
you know my worst critic or like you can't say

1:10:04.800,1:10:09.520
anything that I don't know already because I'm 
so critical to myself. Um, but self-criticism

1:10:09.520,1:10:16.080
just really backfires. Like there's such a huge 
body of evidence showing that when we we think

1:10:16.080,1:10:20.240
we're being productive when we beat ourselves up 
about something because we we think that's the

1:10:20.240,1:10:27.040
best means of changing to punish ourselves for 
having made a mistake. Um, but the the opposite

1:10:27.040,1:10:33.680
is true because when you're overly self-critical, 
it creates this kind of in um really inhibiting

1:10:33.680,1:10:40.960
stress response that um is bad for your cognition. 
So, your decision- making and your mental health

1:10:40.960,1:10:46.800
and it quickly becomes this kind of spiral. You're 
actually less able to think about ways out of your

1:10:46.800,1:10:52.960
problem when you're being overly self-critical 
and like um taking your mistake very personally.

1:10:52.960,1:10:58.080
Whereas if you're self-compassionate and all that 
means is you're accepting that you know making

1:10:58.080,1:11:03.920
these errors is this kind of you know is part of 
the human experience that no one can be perfect

1:11:03.920,1:11:08.160
100% of the time and recognizing that you can 
acknowledge your error while still being kind to

1:11:08.160,1:11:13.360
yourself. You don't have to have your inner critic 
calling you all of these horrible names. You don't

1:11:13.360,1:11:20.800
have to start questioning your whole um uh kind of 
credibility just because you made one mistake. So

1:11:20.800,1:11:25.120
you start you can make excuses for yourself. You 
can look for the other factors that might have

1:11:25.120,1:11:29.920
influence influenced what you did while still also 
recognizing that fundamentally there was something

1:11:29.920,1:11:35.680
wrong with your you know with your actions that 
you can improve on. Um people who do that are just

1:11:35.680,1:11:41.280
much healthier. They have lower levels of things 
like inflammation which we know is related to our

1:11:41.280,1:11:47.120
overall health. Um you know they're less likely to 
suffer from kind of cardiovascular disease uh that

1:11:47.120,1:11:51.920
kind of stuff. But also they are just better at 
changing. they're much better at self-improvement.

1:11:51.920,1:11:58.320
By being kind to yourself, you're putting yourself 
in this um position where you have more cognitive

1:11:58.320,1:12:04.720
flexibility. You're better able to solve problems 
and to to make the changes that you need to avoid

1:12:04.720,1:12:11.040
the same mistake happening again. Gosh, we 
can help ourselves after all. Stop being so

1:12:11.040,1:12:15.280
mean to yourself. That's what you're saying. Stop 
being so horrible. Yeah. Treat yourself like it's

1:12:15.280,1:12:19.600
a kind of cliche, but you know, talk to yourself 
like, you know, a friend or family member might.

1:12:19.600,1:12:25.600
And that would involve maybe telling, you know, 
recognizing the mistake, telling you some home

1:12:25.600,1:12:32.480
truths about what you did wrong, but not judging 
you eternally for that mistake and not, you know,

1:12:32.480,1:12:38.400
dealing in like name calling or questioning, 
you know, your whole future based on one

1:12:38.400,1:12:45.840
error. Some of us are definitely very strict with 
ourselves. you know, loosen up a bit. Yeah. Be

1:12:45.840,1:12:51.840
easy on ourselves. It's the way to success is to 
actually to treat ourselves with kindness. It's

1:12:51.840,1:12:57.200
been very educational. Thank you so much for 
your time. Thank you for coming on and I hope

1:12:57.200,1:13:04.720
people listen and benefit and realize that 
this is sciencebacked and we do have power

1:13:04.720,1:13:11.040
over our minds. Yep. Yeah. No, we really do. 
Thank you for your time. It's been a pleasure.